Ged: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon. I’m really excited about today. We are gonna try something a little bit different today. I’m with Milan Veka and I’ve known Milan for probably three, four years. I. And we’ve, we’ve always had some really, really good conversations. We meet up about once a year when I’m over in in Vancouver, in Canada for our coach conferences. And we’ve, we’ve often had some really, really great conversations and I guess that was the spark for why we decided to do what we are doing today. Now, just to set the context when I first met Milan. He had an interesting and curious habit that that sort of piqued my interest. He used to walk around with a pack of cards and from the back they looked like normal playing cards.
But the front was blank and he used those cards to capture notes or interesting thoughts or interesting quotes. [00:01:00] And over time I saw that pack build out a little bit. And that pack has now taken on a bit more of a life of their own. And the cards have now turned into a website. And, and from today, those cards are.
Now gonna turn into a podcast series. And the, the feature here really is about the cards that Milan has built up over the years. And he’s used to capture really interesting thoughts, readings, quotes, captions, that sort of thing. And we both thought that this would be a really good idea for a website and now a podcast.
So. Milan, maybe take us back a little bit and, and take us through the genesis of these cows and what made you take that into what it is now.
Milan: Sure. Thank you Ged. Look I’ve been always terrible at taking notes. I can either pay attention on what is being said or I can be taking notes. I can do both at the same [00:02:00] time. That’s why I took seven years to finish you know, five year. Program at the university. And if it wasn’t for some of my colleagues who were really good at taking notes, maybe I would’ve never finished. So when I got into coaching, obviously that created tons of opportunities for very interesting conversations or very interesting thoughts that you come across when you are reading something, when you’re listening to audiobook.
And when you are talking to you know, clients or or fellow coaches. And. Nowhere. I just said, you know, these like little notes and you know, I had so many, so many post-its that just would go nowhere. So I picked up this deck of empty cards and basically started writing those. And I. What that helped me later was that I, when I would be preparing for a session with a client, I would just shift through those cards, you know, and sure.
This is the original deck that’s, you know, you can see it’s, I can [00:03:00] only, I can read it even though I have to give credit to my daughter for some of the charts drawn on, some of them have pictures or pic pictograms.. So I would just go through them and sort of, you know, refresh, because I have the context.
You know, I can remember where did the cart come from? What was the story? What was the book? What, what was that? And that would help me, bring me back to the time and then use it as a story or use it during the session. But it had that value only for me. And similar you, a couple of people ask me like, what the hell are you doing?
So I explained it to them. I said, oh, that’s really interesting. Can I see your cards? But I. That wouldn’t tell them anything. So while ago I started writing down that context you know, 300 to 500 words for each card. Where is it coming? And you know, what, what is happening? And when I had a stack of those things, I was like, well, I.
You know, maybe I should share it in some way. Hmm. That’s where the, that’s where the website came came from. And the whole idea of, you know, did the suits of the cards have [00:04:00] meanings, you know, and just, you know, milking the analogy as far as you can. And now we are talking about it. So, you know, we, even, even at the whistle, you know, we played a little game where, you know, a cart emerged at the end and then we talked about it.
Right. It’s, it’s, that’s right. Starting the conversation. Yeah. It’s. Almost similar to, you know, Esther Pearl has the, where should we begin a game for sort of the conversation starters in different, yeah. Different relationship settings. So there’s a little bit to that, but you know, more in our space and in, in what we do with our daily lives.
Yeah.
Ged: And where would the viewers and listeners find that website?
Milan: Well, it’s this, you know my last name, which is very hard to explain to people, but it’s V-E-V-E-R k.ca. And of course, on my LinkedIn and probably through yours, and then eventually through this podcast, there is going to be a link somewhere, I assume I’m publishing two a week. On [00:05:00] Tuesdays and Thursdays many people subscribe to get them as they come or just to get a random one once a week or random one twice, twice a month. So there are a couple of options like that and off it goes. It’s taking a life on its own.
Ged: Now. Now what I like about the website is it is very, very visual.
And now think of it like the Astor, Alex Oder of websites, you know, lots of graphics, lots of pictures. I think the illustrations are, are, are wonderful. You know, they, they’re colorful and they’re, they’re interesting. And it, if you look at the website, you’ll see that they’re, it is really easily consumed.
Each of the cards has a short story, a short narrative that tells a story, you know, a cohesive story around the, the, the topic in, in a simple, simple webpage. So there’s a. A picture of the website up on screen right now. It’s, it’s worth, it’s worth having a look and, and subscribing to those, those cards.
And then you’ll get regular updates as they get released,
Milan: Obviously, only if you [00:06:00] find it interesting.
Ged: Of course, of course. Well, I’m sure people will, because there’s some interesting cards there. Excellent. Yeah. Now for this first episode, what are we gonna talk about today?
Milan: Well, I did ask you to pick some and you actually found two cards, which are from the earlier stage.
They’re both published. And first one you wanted to attach was the sandwich, is that card which again, we can put on the screen, the image and we’ll see what people think. Yeah.
Okay.
Milan: Also, I have, I have to say one more thing, my apologies. And that is that you know, all those illustrations are original, you know, drawn by hand by my lovely and extremely talented wife, Janet.
And we are having a lot of fun coming up with what what they should be.
Ged: Okay. Well, let’s jump straight into that first card. The sandwich is dead. Now, tell us [00:07:00] about this card, because the, the, the title is maybe a little bit abbreviated. Tell us about the card.
Well,
Milan: On purpose you will find it with a lot of cards, right? That the, you know, the title itself is, is really just a prompt, right? And is the idea. And.
I realized at one point I can’t really pinpoint that moment, that difficult conversations are not a question of courage. They’re a question of skill. And very often people don’t like the. Willingness and desire to get to the difficult topics. They just like the skills of doing it effectively.
Mm-hmm. Because providing a, providing a feedback or, you know, opening a hard topic is hard by definition. And there are some tools out there and there are some frameworks, for lack of better word, and you know, the sandwich I am. I’m alluding here is the proverbial shit sandwich. I hope I can [00:08:00] say, shit, this is not a national tv, so we’re good. Which is a very, very used method of trying to put that hard feedback between two layers of something sweet which is, it doesn’t work right. It’s it’s a massive breach of trust in a way. And it’s really a. Cowardly way out. It doesn’t really help the receiver of the message to receive it better.
It just receives help the person who is providing it to feel better about themselves and, you know, making it easier to package, there are better ways of packaging that are much, much, much more effective.
Ged: Now. If you’ve ever been the recipient of a feedback sandwich, otherwise known as the shit sandwich, you know it’s coming. You, you know it’s coming because some, someone says you could almost feel the tension in the room and someone says something nice. And the nice thing is out of context with the tension in the room, so you know [00:09:00] there’s something else coming and that’s the filling in the middle, the shit.
Yep. And. As, as Bean mentioned, it is all about making the person who is giving the feedback feel better, make it easier, because you’re, you’re saying something nice, you’re softening someone up. Then you’re telling them the hard truth that you want them to know. And then you are mollifying it with the other slice of bread, which is the other end of the sandwich.
And it’s, it’s never a nice experience and the person who is the recipient always seems to come out worse than the person who’s telling it because it’s designed for the teller, not for the, the listener. Yeah. So precisely. Milan, maybe you can go through and just break down this alternative framework that you have devised.
Milan: I make my own version that kinda works for me which we call safe.
You know, first is. What you see, there’s the observation, there’s the fact, there’s no controversy. This is what I saw happened. You know. The second is the [00:10:00] assessment is what? What do I what do I make of it? How do I understand? How do I interpret what just happened? Then comes the feeling, right? Which is the emotion that is created.
This is critical that actually we only bring the emotion so late because. It’s explaining as we communicate step by step of how we got to the point of being upset or you know, feeling betrayed or sad or, you know, whatever, whatever that is. So we can break it apart and perhaps, you know, clear some misunderstanding before we even get this far.
And at the end is the e which is the expression of need. It’s like, what is it that I need? Why am I bringing this up? You know, how can we correct this so it doesn’t happen, happen again?
Ged: Milan, thanks for that, that overview of the, the safe framework.
So, so may maybe we can go into a little bit more detail and and maybe give an example as well because I think that, that, that always having an example always [00:11:00] helps us solidify a, a concept. So if we were to apply the, the safe framework in, in the real world, what would it, what would it look like?
Milan: Hmm. You know, the, the card itself is actually has actually that example there. So I’m just going to blatantly reuse it. And it is, you know, somebody’s showing up late constantly or let’s say to your daily huddles, right? Yep. That’s obviously infuriating, right? Because you’re wasting everybody’s time and you have rights to be upset and to be angry.
Right. But that’s not necessarily productive. So how do we bring this conversation to somebody, especially if maybe they’re sensitive. You know, shit, sandwich probably wouldn’t work. You we’re so happy to see you every day. You show up, but it’s always seven minute, you know what I mean? That would not be the right thing. So the writing is let’s break it, right? Let’s go with the safe. Let’s go with the observation first. Yeah. What is it? What, what do you see? Or, you know, hey it is certainly obvious or, you know, we see that. You are [00:12:00] generally the last one who comes to the room. Right? That’s a fact. You can dispute it, you know, everybody sees it.
It’s, there’s recording. That’s, that’s a fact right now. What do you make of it? Right? So that’s the, that’s the assessment. Well, you know, our understanding is that you have something more important to you than to. Be here with us on time can be perfectly possible. Maybe there is another meeting that is running into this, or, you know, whatever that is.
We don’t know yet. Now we bring in the emotion that, you know,
yeah. To
Milan: Make that person aware of the impact, which is you know, it makes us feel frustrated because we are sitting here, you know, waiting for you and wasting our time. Now we are bringing the request and say, Hey, you know, if there is some conflict or something we need to know about, maybe we need to talk about it and find a different time that works for everybody or reshift our schedule.
But, you know, it would be good if we can start on the same time at the same time. Right? So you can see how, how by breaking down, the person has the ability to comment on each part separately before going through the frustration and the [00:13:00] anger. Does that make sense?
Ged: No, absolutely. So you, you’re not accusing, you are describing a situation. And then you’re analyzing why that situation isn’t ideal. And then it is about the, the feeling or the emotion, you know, how does that, how does that situation make you feel? And the assumption here, because we are giving feedback is, you know, the feedback, the, sorry, the, the emotion is, is not what the emotion you want to feel from the relationship with that person. And then you’re expressing a. Better outcome or a better solution which, which gives the individual the opportunity, as you say, to, to give their response in all of those four stages. But the focus here is on the situation. It’s not on the individual, it’s not on the problem, and bringing in the emotion and also a possible solution to it as well.
Milan: That, that’s the key. You are turning that person in, your partner in resolving that [00:14:00] unpleasant situation for both of you. Mm-hmm. Right. It’s not, you make me feel, but you know, you when you act this way, this is my interpretation because, and, and you are also taking responsibility for your own feelings, right?
Because they might not be reasonable in that, in that particular situation. And you know, this conversation might help you to uncover that, right? Because we all bring our own baggage into any, into any relationship. Into any conversation, right? Yeah. Something might be just triggering for you, and this person is completely not aware of that.
But without talking about it, it’ll never get better. Right? Yeah. And, and no one, no one really likes difficult conversations. So any mechanism you can use to make difficult conversations easier is, is probably worthwhile. I. And the practice,
you know, and the one thing, and, and I literally use this card today, helping somebody going into a very difficult conversation with their former boss.
And I told them, look, it, it’s gonna [00:15:00] be fine. And it’s gonna be much easier than you think. Because once you have the, once you have the framework, once you have the once, you may be practicing your head a little bit, the feeling of relief. Once the communication has concluded is, is always profitable, plus, you know, you are actually giving the situation a change, a chance to resolve itself.
Well, you know, if you’re just bottling it up, it’ll never happen. It’ll only get worse. Yeah.
Ged: Yeah. And you mentioned practice. I mean, when, when do you apply this this, this framework with your clients or with with other people?
Milan: Yeah. Well you know, what we do early, early with every client stage is that we are teaching them or coaching them on how to provide feedback to each other and, you know, you know, the left and right exercise.
Yep. Yep.
Milan: So several times now I would be introducing this framework. I have a little slide deck when I explain to them of how, how the framework works, and then I ask them to practice giving [00:16:00] each other feedback. Using the framework and I correct them if they’re not. And we do it several times in a, in a course of, you know, first couple of borders.
And it really, really enables everybody to bring up bring up difficult stuff, which, you know, there is always something that needs to be resolved. Right.
Ged: So you use this as part of the cohesive system to to build trust to, yeah, to build cohesion within within the leadership team and beyond and beyond.
That’s where it belongs, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. So this is a useful tool that may make difficult conversations easier to address because it’s better having difficult conversations than not having difficult conversations.
