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Milan: Hello and welcome to Card Cast where every week we pick a random card with the topics that we know are interesting to CEOs and leaders in general, and pick one in random and we just talk about it. And today, what is it that we’re going to talk about? Can we chuff?
Ged: Okay. The card that has been dealt is called the loneliness of the CEO or the loneliness of A CEO Now. This is real. This is real. That CEOs have a unique position, which isn’t necessarily always a great position in that they are the person at the top of the organization, so they have no one really to call on.
They don’t necessarily have the same support network that some. Other people in other functional roles have in other roles in an organization, you’ve got a group of peers, you’ve got a group of peers that you can talk to, so our role as coaches is often finding support channels for the CEO [00:01:00] so they can get their various support needs, needs met.
Now, Milan, what was the genesis of this card? Was this your experience as a coach, coaching A CEO, or your experience as a CEO and the loneliness you felt there? What was the genesis for this card?
Milan: I think it’s all of the above, to be honest. But lately it has been the interactions with the CEOs because it’s, it’s strange. These are successful people of, often on top of their world, And there, then there is this deep, you know. You can almost taste it, you know, sadness in there. That comes from the loneliness.
The, the, and the one thing you can say, like, if you are lonely as a CEO, assured you’re not alone. There is a lot of lonely CEOs out there. And you know, there are things that you just have nobody under normal circumstances to talk to. You cannot talk to your board, [00:02:00] even if you have one about everything for obvious reasons. If you talk to your family, they don’t understand necessarily what is it that you’re going through, supportive as they would be. You can’t talk to your team because it might undermine morale and, you know, you have, you have all this isolation and responsibility. So. The point of discard, or the more story here, is to build a support system for the CEO.
You know, we use the analogy put your oxygen mask first. You need to take care of yourself because we’re talking mental health here. Ulti,
Ged: Yep.
Milan: You know, the reasons for the loneliness are many. You live in different space than everybody else in different space. In terms of the. Problem area, but also in terms of time as a true CEO, you’re probably several quarters ahead of everybody else.
You don’t necessarily have much to talk about what’s happening now. You’re really living, living in a different, [00:03:00] different moment. And it where people. Down over time to the point of desperation and sometimes to point of burnout or you know, even psychological break ground. I have seen that, which is really, really sad. And the only, the only cure here is prevention.
Ged: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and shouldering that burden, you know, it can be shared. You just need to have those appropriate support channels to be able to share that, that burden. ’cause the burden is absolutely real. And I, I don’t think there were many, I. Good things that came out of the COVID Pandemic. But one good thing that did come out of it was the recognition that mental health is real, and mental health is something that should be taken seriously. And conversations around mental health are much easier now than they used to be years and, and years ago. And you made the point of, you know, psychological support. I mean, we’ve both. Referred clients to [00:04:00] psychologists. Now, I, I, I know that as, as a fact. And sometimes, you know, we, we can’t solve those problems for CEOs.
They need professional help. They need professional support. But what are the other support, support channels that we can help CEOs to identify?
Milan: I was just about ask you the same
Ged: I.
Milan: And start bantering about it, but I think that, you know, let’s, let’s put it like because there are different things that you can talk to different people about, right? Or if I re reverse it, you can build a support system for various areas. Of where you might need the help. Know, the coach is obvious, you know, and this is not a plug, it’s just because it’s true. You know that somebody who is by definition in your corner, right? Our job is to make you better as a CEO. That’s, that’s the only, that’s the only thing, and part of it is to support you, as you need. Second, I would to some degree, say close second, because that’s probably what saved my life as a CEO at [00:05:00] one point, is peer support. You know, finding a group of people in a similar situations. Other CEOs, they are organizations around the world. You know, I am in Vancouver, BC and we have this wonderful organization called AEC here, which is for tech CEOs. But I can think of several others. And I’m sure you know, if you look into, in your area, you will find something like that where you can become a, know, member of a round table with CEOs who might be dealing with very, very similar things.
And, you know, under the cone of silence you can talk about pretty much everything and anything. What else comes to mind to you, Jake?
Ged: I mean, there’s, there’s organizations like, you know, EO and YPO and like no Vistage. I mean, a lot of us coaches, we run CEO round tables or CEO Masterminds. And when, when I’ve run those with groups of CEOs. The, the, the consistent feedback I get is, you know, yes, the content is great, [00:06:00] but what we value just as much is that ability to be able to have conversations with other people who are in the same situation as me Now, they’re running businesses, they’re leading businesses.
They get the problems that I have to deal with every single day, every single week, and they really value that network and of like-minded individuals who are going through the same sorts of struggles as, as they are. So there’s, there’s all sorts of networks out there and, you know, the, the, the key thing is to find one that’s gonna work for you.
It doesn’t have to be one. You can, you can choose more than one. I know plenty of people who are in EO and they also are in CEO mastermind groups or, or round table groups as well, because, you know, you, you need the support and go, go to where you can get the support.
Milan: Okay my turn. Next one is a mentor. There is a difference between mentor and a coach,
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Mentor will listen and will tell you what they would’ve done in the same place, or maybe what they’ve done with their [00:07:00] experience in the past and how they dealt with the situation. A coach will tell you what to do and expects you to do it firm. But that’s why you should have both. Right. Finding a mentor, finding somebody who gets you and can lead you through that is, is tremendously, tremendously helpful.
Ged: Yep. And, and there’s, there’s, there are communities that are maybe less formal than a mastermind group or something like EO or YPO or something. They’re just, just loose collections or, you know, communities of CEO groups that you know that, that can ask questions. And you’ll probably find those on Facebook or on or on Reddit or, you know, organizations like that, that are gonna provide that, that informal ad hoc support to questions that you might wanna put out, put out there.
So many, many different forms of support networks.
Milan: Absolutely. Yeah. The next one would be, you know, we mentioned it, but the therapist, right? You are a CEO. Your main tool [00:08:00] is your brain take care of it, right? Whichever brain we are talking about, right? Somebody says, we have three brains, right? The brain, the heart, and the gut. And sometimes they are in conflict with each other and and nobody’s going to help you with that as well as as a good therapist would.
And it might take a while to find the right one. It might. And again, you said thanks to COVID. I think that the stigma around mental health and about taking care of oneself has actually diminished to a large degree. It’s not such a bad idea to have a therapist. I still, you know, when I tell a CEO, you need a therapy. You know you have to be careful about how you put that language
Ged: Yeah.
Milan: Ultimately, I need a therapy. Everybody needs a therapy, right? It’s, it’s really, really important. It’s an oil change for your brain, really, to make sure that, that you operate well on the, on the emotional level. Especially because [00:09:00] we are talking about lot of blockers that might be making our daily life much harder than it needs to be, just because we don’t understand it.
And that’s, that is, that is super important.
Ged: Yeah.
Milan: Ged: The, the next, next one that springs to my mind and, and is also on, on the card is, is around friends and family, using friends and family. As a support network. And it doesn’t mean you’ve gotta dump your problems on them, you know, but you, what you can do is, you know, you can have a conversation, you can work through things and you know, I, I think most when my, my wife and, you know, most people who have, have wise will, you know, will try and solve a problem when the spouse is or explain something to them.
Whereas all they want to hear, all they want to do is for you to listen. Not solve, just listen. Yep. They don’t want a solution. They just want you to listen to what they’re saying.
Milan: What I find is frequent and I’m kinda. This is weird. I’m going to [00:10:00] say that, that I find it a good thing that it’s frequent because I’m finding it for selfish reasons, because it makes me feel less bad about myself, the issue of setting up the right expectations with your family? Right, because you are in your business as a CEO, you are in it 24 7, right?
Sometimes that means less presence or is hard to manage. So I think that setting up some healthy boundaries, having those conversations before things become a problem, see what type of support is, is required, and making sure that, you know, you are surrounded with people who get it and you’re not going against it. Because if you do. Not going to end well, you know, one way or the other. It’s just not going to be fun. And you can do a lot about it by just a little bit, little bit of prevention and thinking in advance on what does it mean my broader ecosystem when I make this decision for [00:11:00] my career and my company.
Ged: Yep. Yep. Another thing that springs to mind for me is, and, and not all of these support networks are necessarily people or organizations. Now, it could be simple as journaling, and I, I know a lot of CEOs who they, they journal for 15, 20 minutes every morning and that’s a key part of them. Getting thoughts structured and ordered in their heads, or, or, or, another thing might be just having a, a passion or having a, an interest outside of work completely different to what you do at work.
That just gives you some downtime. It gives you some time to actually think differently, think about different things, or solve different problems, or just enjoy doing something that you love. Now that, that is.
Milan: Other people who might, who might not give a. Fornication about your business, right? If you know, one of my clients, we, we’ve recently had this conversation. I said, oh, I just realized I have no social life whatsoever. I said, okay, let’s get you [00:12:00] one.
Ged: Yep. Indeed. Yep.
Milan: Because it’s really, really unhealthy. It, yeah, you know. Pick up a sport, pick up a hobby with a group, with a group of people that you enjoy being around when it’s not about the business, it’s not about you, it’s about just, you know, people that are vibrating at the right frequencies you know, for the, for the moment. And you do that once a week and makes a huge, huge difference.
Ged: Yeah. Yeah. About. 14 years ago, I set up a a men’s group. And we are still going 14 years on. We still have the same, pretty much the same membership we had when we started. A few people have moved away, so they’ve sort of, you know, just drifted off and other people have joined, but we meet every month.
We’ve been doing that for 14 years now. So I see these, these people as being close, close, personal friends. And I know that [00:13:00] if anything ever happened, I could pick up the phone to every single one of them and they would do whatever they could to support or to help me. And that’s one of my support networks.
And I find it hugely, hugely valuable. And, you know, it, it goes, it goes around as well. I mean, know, we’ve, we all support each other and it’s a, it’s a great thing to have within your life.
Milan: Yeah, and you know, to be perfectly honest, there is probably one, and you know, somebody who’s a member. Right. Yeah, the same, same thing happened to me. I just found myself suddenly being included in in a group from our neighborhood and you know, and from all walks of life. And it’s just so fascinating. And so. Great to have that connection, though it might be fleeting and you know, even it might be once a month, but as you’re saying, these are people who are now your circle, then they might call on you for help or advice. [00:14:00] And the, the, the worst thing is when I go out for beers with them and they start quo from this podcast, then it’s odd, but, and it, yes, it does happen.
Ged: Yep, indeed.
Milan: Yeah.
Ged: It is lonely at the top as a CEO. You know, you’ve gotta deal with that loneliness, but it’s not, it’s not to say that there isn’t support out there. So if you’re struggling with the burden of being a CEO, then find your support network. Find the support channels that work for you, because ultimately you’ve gotta fit your oxygen mask first.
If you don’t. You can’t help others, so you need to look after yourself first so that you can look after the rest of your team and the business and what gets created from that.
Milan: I will just use different words, but you know that that came to mind. Like somebody needs to take care of the caretakers. As the CEO,
Ged: I.
Milan: Ultimate caretaker of the company. So who takes care of you? It needs to start with yourself. You need to [00:15:00] take care of yourself, and the way to do it is to build a support network for yourself before it’s too late.
Ged: Really nice ending.
Milan: We
Ged: We’re we’re, well, I think we got there a while ago. I think, you know, no, no one could say that this is not authentic.
Milan: Think enough here?
Ged: Yep.
Milan: Can somebody say whether it’s any good? That’s the question.
Ged: It doesn’t even need to be very good. This needs to be good enough.
Milan: It just needs to, it just needs to resonate with people and that’s
Ged: Yeah,
Milan: Care about. Right?
Ged: Absolutely. Okay. Teaser?
Milan: Only you this time,
Ged: Yeah. Okay. Do you want me to do the whole thing?
Milan: Maybe I’ll interject at some point.
Ged: Yeah, let’s try and keep it to 45 seconds. So I’ve got a note of the [00:16:00] time now. It’s one thing that the script doesn’t have that Riverside does have. You can actually set up a timer so you can see how far, far you’ve gone through, but that’s okay. We’ll, we’ll deal with that.
So in the next episode of podcast, we talked about the loneliness of A CEO. The need for CEOs to find support networks, find support channels that can support them, because ultimately it’s lonely at the top. You can’t burden yourself with all of those decisions without having someone to run things past someone to talk to.
So we talked about boards, we talked about mentors. We talked about organizations like EO and YPO or CEO Masterminds
Milan: Coaches.
Ged: Coaches. Of course coaches. Let’s not forget the coaches. But ultimately, this is about you putting your oxygen mask on first. So that you can look after yourself. So a quote [00:17:00] that came out right towards the end was, someone’s gotta take care of the caretakers.
If you as a CEO is not looking after yourself, you can’t look after the rest of your team and the business.
