Leadership Communication: How One Word Can Change the Whole Conversation

Ged: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Cardcast, the podcast where Milan and I chat about different topics, topics we pick at random from a pack of cards like these. A pack of cards that Milan has conceived of and designed. They’re a lot of fun. You can actually use them as playing cards, but they’re playing cards with a meaning, with a story, with a lesson.

So let’s shuffle that pack and let’s see what pops out today

Milan: It’s the power of language. Yay. That’s an, that’s a good one. You know, this

Ged: Why?

Milan: Of But

Ged: Power of language. But,

Milan: I

Ged: But indeed.

Milan: Interesting card.

Ged: Hmm. Hmm

Milan: Not. No, we should not be talking about it. You know, as, as leaders, communication is one of the top skills, right? Like, if we… I- I… We can’t lead if we don’t communicate well. Yet alone y- yet as it’s, as a skill of its own, it’s really, really undervalued because we think it’s [00:01:00] obvious, and it’s n- we, we should be naturally good it, right? However, a lot changes. You can see a massive, massive difference you start working with language proactively, right? When you, when you really think about how to relay something, to make your point, to invite further conversations rather than stopping it, right? I think that, you know, everybody learned about a yes and rule from, from improv, right?

So, actually, when I lived in Chicago, my wife Janet was a producer at The Second City, so a lot of experience with improv and met a lot of very funny people. But a yes and, you know, Kelly Leonard’s book is speaking about this very, very in a, in a, in a great detail. And, you know, we’ve done that exercise several times with you know, with…

At the coaches. I think that Barb led us in, in Whistler, right? If I remember correctly. [00:02:00] What happens if you answer everything with the yes and versus no but, and you know, what… How does the energy, energy change? And there are so many combination of words. So many ways of, again, inviting a conversation rather than trying to make a point. There is so much you can achieve when you are proactively and consciously inquire rather than advocate, right? We need to make a distinction between the two. Like, inquiry is I’m trying to figure out what is going on. Advocate is I believe I have the right solution, and I just want to convince you, right?

Ged: Yeah

Milan: Less we do of the latter as a, leaders, the more effective we are, right? Because we really want the solutions come from other people, the people we lead or from the people we work with, because if the solution is ours, guess what? We own the outcome. The whole point of leadership is to [00:03:00] make people want to do what needs to get done, right?

And you cannot do it by, advocating. You have to do it by leading and teaching and coaching, to get them to find the best solution, which might be actually better than yours. And you will never know if you advocate rather than inquire.

Ged: Yeah, a- absolutely. And you know, this, the, the power of language and its role in communication, particularly in leadership communication is, is massive. There’s a, there’s a very old quote, I think it’s from George Bernard Shaw, which sort of, you know, says how old it is “The problem with communication is the illusion it has happened.”

Milan: Yeah, yeah,

Ged: And

Milan: Exactly

Ged: At a conversation, you know, and you have two positional people who are talking at each other, not, not having a conversation. And that is often because they haven’t understood the power of language, the power of the words and the emotions and the expressions that you’re using, and the impact it has on the other person. And if you [00:04:00] see someone who is a really good communicator, it just comes naturally to them. You know, the things they say, the words they use, the expressions, the phrases, the pauses, the silence it just comes across as totally natural, and it can be spellbinding. Now, if you, if you, if you’re in an interaction with someone like that, you just feel obliged to, to listen or to contribute, depending on what that person is trying to, trying to drive.

And that’s a, that’s a very, very powerful skill, but it’s a skill that can be learned. I’m convinced of that. Do you think it can be learned, Melan?

Milan: Oh, oh, absolutely. And, and it comes with awareness, right? And there are a couple of things that we have… Again, we have to consciously invoke as a, as a thinking pattern when we communicate. One of them is just because it’s clear in my head,

Ged: Mm-hmm.

Milan: Even after I said that, doesn’t mean that it’s clear in the head of the receiver. Or worst case scenario, it is clear, but it’s different, right? They have a very clear [00:05:00] image, but that image is different than mine. So how do I use language to make sure that that message was received, right? As simple as read back, simple as, “Hey, tell me, you know, what, what do you think? What do you feel?” Staying in that inquiry mode, right? The just because it’s obvious doesn’t mean it’s true, right?

Ged: To you. Mm-hmm.

Milan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, you

Ged: Mm-hmm

Milan: We’re, we’re walk- walking, walking into any conversation, into any exchange with, with a bias of some kind, most likely. We have the best idea already, or we’re excited about th- this thing, or we really want to hire this person, or we really think that the decision should be made in this particular way. And keeping that in check, and then using language appropriately, right? Inviting the conversation, inviting the, the inquiry. Pressure testing the ideas is really, really important. And sometimes it’s [00:06:00] literally change in words that determines the rest of the conversation. Again, I think I, I might have made it, made it example as, as a joke in the beginning, but – I disagree versus I don’t understand. Right? It’s so powerful because I disagree means, okay, and now what, right? Now it’s my job to convince you or,

Ged: And it, and it puts people straight on the defensive. Yeah, it puts people straight on the defensive and they get positional

Milan: But if I say, “Hey, I, I don’t understand how you arrived there, can you explain it to me?” My body language might be the same because I could be almost like I have no idea how the hell would you think that that’s a good idea, right?

But again, I’m saying, “Hey, I don’t understand. You explain it to me?” Chances are I’m going to learn something,

Ged: Yeah, help me understand is a, is another way of putting that, yeah.

Milan: Even if they are wrong, right? Even if I am right in the whatever context that, [00:07:00] you know, I am, I’m right to disagree or whatever, you know, whatever that is, just learning how they arrive to that conclusion, helps me, you know, dealing with them in the future, right? As, you know, as leaders, our job is not to solve issues, our job is to recognize patterns and deal with the patterns, correct the patterns. You know, make

Ged: Yeah, and be able to predict from those. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Milan: E- exactly, exactly,

Ged: Mm-hmm

Milan: So, for me, every disagreement is an, is a learning opportunity

Ged: Yeah

Milan: You know, my counterpart, where they’re coming from, how they’re thinking, maybe what kind of coaching they need, what kind of context they’re missing, right? Or what kind of context I am mis- I am missing. They might be coming from, oh, they just did not communicate well that, hey, this is the data they’re basing their, their decision on. I had no idea that they’ve done that research, and I’ve been actually doing wrong by them by disagreeing because I thought I knew everything, [00:08:00] right?

Ged: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and ultimately we’re trying to get to the point where people have a conversation, they have a debate. Now, we don’t want an argument. And if you’re using words that are powerful in a negative way in a conversation, it’s very, very easy to descend into a disagreement rather than a debate.

Now, and, you know, it, it’s reasonable to assume that if you’re going into a discussion, you’re probably trying to convince the other person that you’re right and they’re wrong. You know, and, and some good debates will actually turn that around, and you think, “Okay, I came into this thinking this, but you’ve convinced me.

Now you’ve persuaded me that your, your position actually has merit, and it might have more merit than, than my position.” but the way to avoid descending into that negative argument is to use powerful language, positive, powerful language that doesn’t make people defensive, that doesn’t m- get people’s backs up.

And it’s the choice of words, it’s the choices of expressions, and it’s the choice of language and phrasing that really sets that. And a- [00:09:00] again, you can see those debates, you know, and those debates can be really, really confirming. They can be really fulfilling because, you know, you’re going from one side to another and someone’s adding a different perspective, but they’re all positive, and people are listening with the intent to understand rather than listening with the intent, w- with, you know, with the intent to respond.

You know, a very, very powerful position. Milan, what, what are your favorite or not favorite position or negative words that you’ve, you come across?

Milan: Well, you know, the, the obvious ones is like we can’t do that, It’s like how, how do you– where do you go from there, right? The– you have to start digging, start saying like, “Why can’t we do that?” Da, da, da, da, da, right? W- we were talking about this one, th- this particular one a lot in the reframing card, right?

Because the whole idea is this would need to be true in order for us to be able to do that, right? And then we can investigate those, and then we can see do we actually have a control over them. Even if the outcome is that it’s actually impossible, [00:10:00] right, we might find a close enough alternative outcome because, you know, out of the five things that are necessary, four we can control, right? Or four we can actually make happen, and then what kind of outcome do we get to if we control at least those four and not that fifth one, right? But we will never get to that analysis if we just say, “No it’s impossible. Move on. Let’s do something else.” Right? Especially when they don’t actually provide that something else

Ged: Yeah.

Milan: Which

Ged: Yeah, yeah

Milan: Also happens quite often, right?

Ged: What, one I see…

Milan: A

Ged: So,

Milan: One? Yeah.

Ged: I lo- I mean, related to that,

Yeah, I can’t do that or we can’t do that. That’s very much phrased in the, in the negative and, and there’s a neutral version of that which is similar that is, you know, I have to or we have to.

You know, which im- almost im- im- implies reluctance. And it’s just a very simple change. I get to, we get to. Now that just shows that you want to do that, that you’re [00:11:00] looking forward to it, that it is, you know, inspiring and, you know, energizes you. Now rather than that very neutral flat, I have to. It’s a, that’s a very simple change of language, you know.

I, I get to spend time with Milan, you know. That’s a, that’s a positive thing, right? Then I know… Now I don’t say to my wife on Thursday night, my Thursday night, you know, “I have to spend time with Milan tomorrow.” You know, I get to spend time with Milan. That’s a positive, that’s an energizing thing. Such a simple change of language.

Milan: I would hope that the change in language, reflects your feeling about our session, so I really, really appreciate it. W- what is, what is your favorite combo besides that one?

Ged: Well I’m, we are, I’m, I’m no doubt we’re gonna speak about the but thing but we’ll leave that one till later. I think for me is just the simple why and that’s what I jumped in with when we, when we picked the card first thing is, like, you know, the, you know, how to stop a conversation in flow, how to take all the energy out of a conversation is [00:12:00] just by, you know, and you, when you’re saying it, you’ve probably got your arms crossed, you know, why?

Now, it doesn’t mean you can’t use the word why, but you’ve gotta introduce it. You’ve gotta give some context as to, you know, as to why the why is necessary or what you’re trying to, to get to.

Milan: Why?

Ged: Yeah, indeed. Now, so it, just by, just by saying why stops a conversation. It discourages debate, it discourages, you know, that interaction, that, that intent to change an opinion rather than be positional and just restate your, your position. And, and it, it is a, it is a valuable word. I mean, it is a word that needs to be used but you’ve gotta do it in a way that sort of doesn’t derail the conversation, you know? Yeah. You know, help me understand why you think like that. You know, help me understand why that is so. You know, now i- is that really true?

You know, why couldn’t it be this instead? So just that one word, it just derails conversations. It takes all the energy out of a conversation

Milan: You’re, you’re absolutely [00:13:00] right. And, and you know, I’m, I’m still learning, right? English is not my first language. It’s not my second either. It’s not my third either, but I forgot the other two, so Ged: Yeah. It’s actually my, not my first language either, but

Milan: Right?

Ged: M- my, my first language is,

Milan: Right?

Ged: Yeah, my first language is French. Yeah, I learned, I learned English at when I was two or three. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Milan: Yeah, mine is, mine is Czech, and then because I grew up behind the Ir- Iron Curtain, we had to learn Russian,

Ged: Of course

Milan: Fifth fifth grade, so that was interesting, and I really, really sucked at it. And then in high school, I, I actually learned German first, which again, because of the geographic thing made, made more sense at the time. Came later. Anyway, so, you know, there’s always the, the interesting like, you know, how would you say this in different language? You know, what, what it actually is, how that, that gets translated, literally, you know, translated into a different into, into another person’s [00:14:00] brain because that’s, that’s all we’re doing, right?

It’s, it’s a delivery mechanism. There is one thing I want to double-click, though. You twice said something about changing other people’s opinion as the… Or, or as the as the objective here. I would be very reluctant to do that, right? Because I think that it… I don’t want to change somebody’s opinion. I want to discover the truth and then arrive at end it, and then agree on it, right? And move on from that, a new common ground, and then start, start from that one. You know, we’re not going to be talking about negotiations, right? Even though every conversation is a negotiation at some point. You do have some kind of, some kind of desired outcome. But I don’t really want to get into the negotiation as the game or negotiation

Ged: Oh,

Milan: The

Ged: Mm-hmm.

Milan: Right?

Ged: No, that’s not what I mean. Mm-hmm

Milan: Really is a tool of discovery primarily, and that’s why I’m so behind the more inquiry than advocacy, and it doesn’t mean that you are not allowed [00:15:00] or that you shouldn’t be advocating. Absolutely, there are situations where it, where it is. But you know, I will always seek understanding before trying to arrive at something.

Ged: Yeah. No, a- absolutely. When I say, you know, you… I mean, a, a conversation or a debate, normally there are two different, you know, viewpoints. And, you know, each of those is coming in with the intent to, to, to get their viewpoint across. Now, the debate should also be open to changing the opinion, changing the mind of one of the sides, or, or coming to a, a position that isn’t one side or the other, but maybe somewhere in the middle or, or somewhere completely, completely different.

So when I say, you know, you, we, you know, we, we wanna change opinions, you know, th- this is about

Milan: Is

Ged: Coming into things with strong views,

Milan: Being,

Ged: Strong views that are loosely held, where you’re prepared to let go of a view if someone puts forward a credible reason why your view shouldn’t be held onto. You know, which is very different to [00:16:00] coming into a conversations with strong views, strongly held.

Now, that rarely, rarely ends in debate.

Milan: Like

Ged: That normally ends up in an argument or a, a negative conversation

Milan: Yes and. You wanted to talk about but, what’s wrong with but?

Ged: Again, but just takes all of the energy out of a conversation. You know, it doesn’t… It ends a conversation. Now, the conversation might continue, but that train of discussion has ended with those three letters. Milan: Mm-hmm.

Ged: I mean, this, this is something I am not, not good at, at all. I use but far too often. And you know, the, I- I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to change the, how I use it and when I use it and if I use it. But I haven’t got across that completely, and I still find myself using that, and I can, I can see the impact it has on the conversations that I have. And I need to get a lot better at that, and it’s a really difficult word to stop using. You know, if it is in your vernacular, you [00:17:00] know, then it’s a, it’s a word that you just reach out to all the time, and you do it subconsciously.

You’re not even aware that you’re doing it. And that, and that’s the dangerous thing about buts. That’s the dangerous thing about buts is because most of the time we’re not even aware that we’re using that word, and we’re not aware of the impact it has. But anyone looking in from the side, they see it as clear as day

Milan: Well, I think that that leads us back to the, to the concept of really using language deliberately as a tool, right? Because when we are in a deep discussion, when we are in brainstorming, right? You brain is going 100 miles an hour, you know, is several sentences ahead and our mouth is just trying to catch up and it spit, you know, it, it, it spews out whatever, whatever comes to try to catch up with the thoughts or, you know, try to keep up with, keep up with the thoughts then stuff like that happens, right? But it’s usually a sign that you are somewhere, somewhere else in your mind and you want to make a different point. It can lead to a [00:18:00] h- hijacking of the conversation, which is again what you, what you don’t necessarily want to do, right? And I think it’s Damian who loves the, but” you know. It’s the, it’s the worst thing, like, you know. I agree, but I don’t. Like, you know, what is the, you know, what is the point there? So there are definitely, definitely these little things that we can improve just one of them is going to make a huge, huge impact on the quality of the conversation

Ged: That, that word B-U-T, but, has recently been used in this part of the world as part of a I’m not gonna go into details because it’s probably a case that’s gonna hit the courts. But s- it was used, an apology, but justification for behavior. You know, and the media in this part of the world has latched onto those three letters, and, you know, what everyone is saying and the, the narrative now is [00:19:00] everything that was said before that word but is irrelevant.

Yeah, the apology is irrelevant because it has been totally disempowered by what came afterwards, the justification for what happened

Milan: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ged: Yeah

Milan: You know, o-o-once you mention like this part of the world I think that’s the other element we really need to

Ged: Yep

Milan: About, and that’s sort of the c-culture implications. So, you know, I have teams. Now I, I have one of my clients, 20 people, and I think there is probably 16 different languages between them as first language.

It’s, it’s

Ged: Mm-hmm.

Milan: Right? It’s, it’s, it’s It’s absolutely wonderful, and it’s great to be in Vancouver because you have so many so many, groups like that, right? People come from all over the world or from all sorts of different backgrounds. It’s, it’s just a fantastic thing. But one has to be really, really careful because you get two ESLs, you know, English as a second language, each one of them from a vastly [00:20:00] different cultural background. Speaking English to each other, right? The thing is that those same words might be creating a very different picture in their mind. So even if there is a perception of understanding, it might actually be very, very different. Once we start putting like a national habits, if you will, or, or customs into place, you know different parts of the world have a different understanding of the word conflict, right? Because we can have a healthy conflict, We can have we can have a fight of the

Ged: A war.

Milan: Conflict,

Ged: Yep. Yeah, war. Yeah. Mm-hmm

Milan: It’s still conflict, right? Unless we clarify which, which one we are talking about, right? Based on where somebody comes from, emotional loading behind that word could be different. You have to

Ged: Mm-hmm.

Milan: Very careful. You know, the same thing goes with arguments, with, you know, we might have a tone of a language that is co-completely acceptable in one [00:21:00] part of the world, but very offensive in another. Who we are talking to and why becomes a really, really important element of it which when we are talking about language and communication, words are not everything, right?

There is also like Norman Wolf calls this the music, right? That the words, the, the words needs to– lyrics needs to match the music, otherwise you are in a very, very weird place. You know the for example, the exercise don’t go there, right? How many different ways can you use those three words and relay completely different meaning, right?

Completely different way. You say, “Don’t go there. Don’t go there.” Right? Like so many different ways. You know, the other one, a really, really good exercise is, I never said she stole my money. Just where you put the stress in that sentence changes its meaning completely, right? Again, we know that, we know that exercise quite well.

So again,

Ged: Mm-hmm.

Milan: [00:22:00] Briefly, you know, language is a incredible powerful tool. It’s not easy, not natural necessarily to learn to use effectively. It’s something we should be paying attention to, and we should practice it.

Ged: Mm-hmm.

Milan: Lot of feedback, right? Making sure to do a lot of feedback, making sure that, you know, what we are what we are broadcasting is received, you know, without without errors. And the same way that we seek understanding when something that we are receiving via language is not really matching our mental model at the moment.

Ged: Yeah, yeah.

So language is powerful, and it’s as much about how you choose to use words, which words you choose, and which words you choose not to use and timing, and of course, the power of silence at the right time