Milan: [00:00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are. We are back here with our episode of Card Cast and it’s a very special episode. Indeed. This is the first time when we will not be shuffling cards because we are blessed with the presence of our first esteemed guest guest, Dr. Carrington. Roto she’s the person who. A large degree inspired cart coach or a coach. And therefore we’ll be talking about that one. We want pretend to be shuffling. We just basically say, this is what we, this is what we’re gonna do. And of it goes. You were the one who answered my question, like, where do you know? You know, where do you stop where you stop coaching and start therapy.
And for those who [00:01:00] don’t know you, let me just say that you are a rare combination of a coach and a psychologist and experience in both. So we’ll be talking about that today. Where is the barrier? Where is the line between when we are coaching and when we are doing something else? So, welcome and thank you for joining us. Joining us.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Thank you, Milan. I’m glad to be here with you and.
Milan: Alright. So let’s start, you know, we had a conversation last summer, if I remember correctly. And you know, I came to you and say, you know, how do we know? Because, you know, as coaches we often run into a situation where am I getting out of my depth here a little bit like you know. This is hard field.
We don’t want to cause any damage and it would be so easily. So what? Easy, so what would be your advice? What would you tell us and say, Hey, if you hear that, you should probably step back and suggest that maybe the couch is what the client needs [00:02:00] rather than the coaching approach.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Right. Well, I remember that conversation well, and you had asked me the same question and my response to you was, it’s all in the tense. And as you mentioned, that’s what really kind of brought us to where we are today. So the question maybe is, what did I mean by that? And. When we are operating as coaches, we are very future focused with our clients.
So we’re thinking about where do you wanna go and where are you now, and what’s the distance between? And we’re looking at goals and the path and accountability, so we could think about that as forward momentum, if you will. In contrast, sometimes CEOs, leaders, others have [00:03:00] things that are weighing them down, things that they need to unpack first.
And so when I said it’s all in the tents, it’s because coaching is future focused and therapy in large part is current. To past focus. It’s what are you carrying? What do we need to unpack? What do we need to process? What can we free you from? And so when I mentioned with Coaching Forward Momentum, we could partner that with therapy, removing the weight. And so thinking about that, I think the, maybe the anchoring line that people could think about is when we start losing forward momentum.
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Coaches, we start listening for tense and that can give us some hints about how to support our clients best.
Milan: Mm-hmm. Now, it, it makes lot of sense to me, but, you know, as you’re, as you’re speaking, the thought of [00:04:00] really as a coach is we’re figuring out what to do and what not to
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Behavior, installing new habits, right. What we are dealing with, what you’re talking about is baggage that people come there that the way that is preventing them from doing so. Right. And I, I like the, I like your wording. We need to free them from that. So we can regain that forward momentum. Jet, maybe what was what is your experience here?
Ged: I, I, I love that distinction. I think that’s such a simple, simple analogy. And it’s, it’s really easy to get your, to get to grips, to get your, your head around. And you know, when, when you said it’s all in the tent, I, that was like a, I. Yes, yes, yes. And I’ve, and it, it, it’s one of those, I mean, psychology is incredibly complex and I’m not a psychologist, so I can’t really, you know, talk about it in any, in any depth at all.
But, you know, we.
Milan: Why Pamela is here.
Ged: Well indeed, absolutely.
Milan: [00:05:00] Reason.
Ged: But, but, but as coaches, we, we have to be able to understand when we are getting to that line, when we are getting to the point where we are no longer equipped to deal with that problem. And just expressing it in that very simple way, future or past present that, that just gives us a really easy.
Observation point to say, okay, I need to make some phone calls. I need to connect this person with, with, with with a, a professional, a professional that can, can help them because I mean, this is, this is a difficult area and I, I, I’ve certainly experienced this with some of my clients. I, I had one client who.
I won’t go into the situation, but you know, something had happened within his leadership team. He just could not get past it. He could not get past it, and that was having a material impact on his ability to operate as a good chief executive officer. And. At, at some point I sort of said to him, look, you know, I, I nearly said his name there.
That would’ve been a er, [00:06:00] you know?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Please don’t.
Ged: No, no, indeed. Yeah. Yeah. As, as you know, you are, we are now going beyond the CEO coach relationship. I can’t help you with this issue, but what I can do is I can put you in touch with someone who can.
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Ged: I’m, I made a couple of connections. They ended up seeing a, a psychologist. They had a few sessions and at the end of that they came back and they’d managed to cut the baggage loose. They’d managed to let go of the load. And that it was, it was actually a surprisingly quick process. And now that was just forgotten and we moved on. But. Not everyone’s open to that.
Not every CEO is open to that, and I’m sure we’re gonna come to that as we talk through this today. But it’s a, it’s a difficult line to spot. But your model makes it a lot easier. But even so, not everyone is open to it when the time comes.
Milan: Yeah, I think that the [00:07:00] stigma is still there. Right. How Pamela, sorry, I interrupted you. You, you go ahead.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: No. Well, what I was thinking about Judd as you were talking is the extent to which as coaches, we typically work with very high performing leaders. Wouldn’t you both agree?
Ged: Yep.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: They’re CEOs, they are executive team members. They’ve done a lot of things. They’ve achieved much. And so the misnomer there is that people need therapy because they’re failing, and that’s not true with high performing leaders.
Oftentimes, they need therapy because they’re functional, not because they’re failing. They’ve learned to cope. Well, they’ve learned to move past things, and as you reach higher levels of leadership, your company is growing, the demands are greater, coping stops being enough. And so [00:08:00] probably in the situation, Jedd that you mentioned, for that leader, that situation was almost like the straw, right?
That made all the difference when coping just stopped being enough. And so. As leaders, as coaches, even, because this applies to us as well, we can find ourselves in situations where our emotional reaction is out of proportion to the situation. That’s a red flag. That’s a stop and pause. Let’s figure out where this needs to go kind of flag. We can find ourselves in situations where we can’t stop thinking about that situation. Our response to the situation choices that we made, maybe perhaps even regret. And it becomes that, you know, to quote old times when we had records that scratched it becomes the scratch and the record where the message repeats itself over and over [00:09:00] again.
And so if we look at it from that lens, then coaching stalls when capacity. The person’s capacity is the constraint because they’ve just become so functional and they’re coping through really tough situations and getting stuck or becoming circular,
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: If that makes sense.
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Ged: So you mentioned becoming overly emotional as a red flag, but that’s probably not the only thing that people should look out for. So. What are, what are the other, what are the other signs? What are the other triggers that, you know, you, you, you commonly see that, that we should sort of look out for and say, ah, ah, okay.
There’s something happening here.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Yeah, well I mentioned two, so that was one of them. And the other is persistent. Might call it rumination. So like repeated
Ged: Okay. Yep.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Shame, self blame. That [00:10:00] would be a second category. Times when. There’s repetition without movement. So we keep circling back to that same place without moving forward.
Maybe it’s a conversation, maybe it’s a decision. Difficulty making decisions can also be one of those flags that says maybe there’s. You know, fear and anxiety at a level that it’s just difficult to push the go button.
Milan: Hmm.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Another could be that the individual’s strategy, ’cause we all have strategy, right?
We have. Coping strategies. We have other kinds of strategies that help us with life. That strategy keeps changing, but you see the same pattern of behavior, or you’re hearing the same words again and again. And so the pattern isn’t changing even though the individual is [00:11:00] trying some different things. That can be another sign.
Milan: Mm-hmm. I don’t know if the, the, it is because I, because of my own history, if I’m particularly attuned to it, but I run into a conflict avoidance quite often as an issue, even, even in high performing individuals. Your, what’s your take on that? Because like, how did you get where you are with the problem?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Right. I, that’s a tough one, isn’t it? Because it’s incongruent perhaps with your history or how you even see yourself, and so. I think it ties to a question that CEOs can talk about with their coaches and even just reflect on themselves, am I clear on what to do, but unable to execute? When that’s happening, there’s [00:12:00] probably some sort of weight or something.
That is weighing you down or holding you back that needs to be attended to. And that’s not a point of shame. That doesn’t say you’re not gonna continue to do great things, or that what you’ve done so far isn’t meaningful. It’s at this point in time, I know what I need to do.
Ged: So it has come back. Let me just unmute you if I can.
Milan: No, I don’t think you can
Ged: Nah.
Milan: She needs to unmute herself. Yeah.
Ged: Yeah.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: That’s so weird.
Milan: Yeah.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Do you want some practical CEO questions? I got ’em. No. Are we recording? Whoops.
Ged: Yeah.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Sorry.[00:13:00]
Ged: So you, you muted just, just as you said at a point in time. Now, I’m not sure if you remember exactly what you were gonna say next. But if you could pick it up from there, that would be incredible.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Good point. Ged: What, what, so, so make it easy for. To make it easy for Luke, why don’t I interrupt with a question and Luke can just splice that in over.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Yeah, I was moving practical. CEO questions, right? I wonder if I need therapy. It’s kind of where I was headed with that. So that was thinking, am I clear on what to do? But I’m unable to execute. There are others as well, so maybe that’s a place to connect it. That should three throughput it.
Milan: So you were, you were say, you were [00:14:00] saying that A CEO is at a point in time where they know what to do but cannot execute and it usually means there is something weight or baggage holding them back. And you said that it’s not something to be ashamed of, but it, and it doesn’t invalidate their past achievement or future
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Milan: Yeah.
Ged: Okay. Well it looks like Milan’s got some very, very quick AI notes there. Is that right?
Milan: Correct. Yes.
Ged: Okay.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Was gonna say, that’s amazing. That has to be ai.
Ged: Can, can you pick it up from that at at a point in time? Is, does that make sense? What Milan, is it worth Milan reading that back out again?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Just read that last part again, Milan.
Milan: You stressed that that point in time where you ca you know what you do, but you cannot execute on it, and that it’s not something to be ashamed of and it doesn’t invalidate your achievements or potential.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Okay,
Milan: Right.
Ged: Are you gonna pick it up from at that point in time? Is that, is that, is that where you’re gonna pick it up from Pamela?[00:15:00]
Pamela Carrington Rotto: So I should say at that point in time again.
Ged: Yeah. ’cause I’ll ’cause it mutes shortly after that. So if we can just splice that straight into what we’ve got already.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Okay. Milan, read the at that point in time. One more time please.
Milan: The CO is at a point in time when they know what to do but cannot execute, and it usually means there is some weight or baggage holding them back. Yeah. Let’s see.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: At that point in time when they know what to do, but they can’t execute on it. And so that does not, Val, okay, I gotta do it again.
Ged: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: That up
Ged: Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. It is. It’s really hard. Really hard.
Milan: Get you, do you want me to get, you started with like a leading question
Pamela Carrington Rotto: No, I wanna, I wanna stay with this. I just. I’m, I gotta like see it for a minute. Hang on.
Ged: Yes. What.[00:16:00]
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Because anything passed at that point in time, I don’t have to repeat. I can say whatever. Right.
Milan: Exactly.
Ged: Absolutely. Absolutely. We’re not trying to recreate it word for word. We’re, you know, we’re just using this as a join point. That’s all. Yep.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: So can I say the CEO is at that point in time, or do I have to say just what comes past at that point in time? Okay.
Milan: Whatever you wanna say. Yeah.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Okay, it. All right. So the CEO is at a point in time when they are struggling to execute, even though they’re clear on what needs to be done, and that can be very startling and very unsettling. For A CEO who has a history of achievement and who has been able to be successful by doing, by leaning in. By grinding harder and yet they’re stuck and [00:17:00] they’re unable to execute. And that is a great point for an individual and even that individual and their coach to reflect on what might be going on there. Is there something that is so weighing you down that you’re just having. A hard time getting past it. It might also be that there are old patterns that just keep hijacking your present decisions and we know that life has a series of ups and downs and loops with it. So sometimes old patterns just have a way of rearing their ugly heads when we don’t want them in our lives. But they come back. And so thinking about that, those patterns and how that’s interfering with decisions also may result in someone seeking the couch beyond just the coach.
Milan: Mm-hmm.[00:18:00]
Ged: All, all of the things you’ve described there, I mean there, there’re often things that CEOs just do now they’re, they’re. They’re often, you know, not making decisions, procrastinating, you know second guessing, you know, that’s not necessarily a sign that they need, you know, professional help. So it’s, it’s di really difficult to identify, you know, what bearing of mind these flags, you know, what puts it in the, you need help to, that’s just you having a bad day, you know, having a bad, bad few days, few weeks.
So, so it is really hard to spot, you know, that’s. That, that’s what I’ve, that’s what I’ve struggled with in the past, because sometimes, you know, CEOs just they, yeah, they don’t really wanna make that decision. They don’t need to, but they don’t, doesn’t mean they need help. So it’s, it’s a really hard situation to really identify and diagnose.
So, you know, that’s, I guess I don’t, that’s not a question there. It’s just a, it just shows that what we do is [00:19:00] difficult or hard and, like, know you, you, you don’t wanna call in the psychologist when it’s not necessary. No.
Milan: Oh, I
Pamela Carrington Rotto: And.
Milan: With that.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: I thought Milan might have something to say about that.
Milan: No, because, you
Ged: That’s okay. Mm-hmm.
Milan: Were talking about like te telling somebody that they need therapy. Used to be like, you know, eent, you are crazy. What’s wrong with you? Right. But that’s not what it is. I really think that, especially if you are at that’s stress, like it’s like. Oil change for your brain.
It’s just a maintenance there because there is always something, right? We are, we are having two conversations here, right? One is about how we spotted that there is something that needs handling. But then the second piece is the value of therapy itself for the CEO, regardless of whether anything, you know popped out its ugly head or not, right?
Because I really think that,
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: It is, it is like, don’t say, this is one of my first question, but as [00:20:00] soon as there is some trust you know, established with the CEO. Me asking whether they do have a therapist or not, that they’re regularly seeing is just standard questions. So I know where they’re at, whether they have that support, whether there, there is the team, you know, we talked about this a lot jet in the loneliness of CEO episode.
Ged: Yeah.
Milan: And,
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: That, that I do believe that that having a therapist is as important as. You know, having a coach or having a mentor or having somebody like, you know, it’s a part of the support team for somebody who cannot do it alone, even though they are under the impression that they should. So yeah, that, that was my
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: There.
Sorry about it.
Ged: No, no, I think, I think that’s entirely valid. And I, and I love that perspective. And and there are two things that’s jumping into my mind right now is, you know, first of all, you know, has the stigma of. Support, help therapy changed over the years and it probably has, and we’ll probably spend some time talking about that in a moment.
But I’m also [00:21:00] thinking there’s maybe some geographical differences here. And that may be in the US maybe in Canada.
Milan: Absolutely. Yeah.
Ged: Yep. You know, where therapy is, just seems as the norm. And in Australia, I mean, there’s a lot less stigma attached now than there used to be. That’s now that’s, that’s, that’s understood.
But it’s also probably not as common. It’s probably not as common. It doesn’t mean that it’s seen as you, you, you’re crazy and you know, you, you know that, you know what’s wrong with him, but it’s probably not as common as it is in, in the North American, in North America.
Milan: Yeah, if
Pamela Carrington Rotto: I,
Milan: You put Europe into it, if I can bring that, bring that lens being being from there, you’re absolutely right.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: It’s, it’s getting better. It’s getting much better. And to some degree, I think that COVID helped because, you
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm.
Milan: So many people did realize that, hey, a lot of the things we were dealing with, we can’t cope anymore.
And this is actually this is actually a way out. But then there is the other problem and there’s actually accessibility of that service and its quality [00:22:00] because, because the stigma. Effectively reduced the
Pamela Carrington Rotto:.
Milan: For those for those services. Therefore, you didn’t have as many practitioners who would, you know, who would have the experience required when suddenly, when the, when the need spikes or the stigma gets removed to get access to that service’s.
Actually not easy.
Ged: Yeah. So, so Pamela, you’ve been in this industry for years and years and years. Have you seen a shift? Have you seen a change in in the last 10, 15 years?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Oh, most definitely. There has definitely been a significant shift and there’s even a generational shift as well. So that is very promising because I think that, you know, there has been a misperception about therapy therapies for people who are weak in their mind, or people who don’t have the willpower to just move beyond, and there’s much more realization now.
That we’re living these lives [00:23:00] and a lot of things happen along the way and some of them we probably work through in a healthy manner during that time. And other things just aren’t for a lot of different reasons. And. So when we think about therapy and its role, it’s increasing a person’s capacity. So coaching directs that capacity, right?
But therapy increases capacity. And one, you know, it helps remove the weight, right? So that you can run.
Milan: Yeah, actually had a conversation with a colleague yesterday and we came up with a word ball pass ball capacity, which is having capacity and the balls to do something.. But I, I wanted to dig into one more thing
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Really love your advice on this, because I’ve ran into it in, in several cases, and that’s people [00:24:00] pleasing tendencies and the
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Can completely stop somebody’s capacity to act on a decision, even when they know that they’re rude.
One, because they’re afraid of hurting somebody. They’re afraid of not doing the right thing. And you know, Jed and I talk about this a little bit in. In some of the A player episodes and, and definitely in the lovable losers one
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Because that’s, you know, one of the, one of the issue when somebody’s great and, you know, they have the, the, you know they live and breathe the company values, but they just shouldn’t be there.
And that’s very difficult for the CEO to do something about that. And if they have a people policing tendencies, then it gets really, really hard. They’ve been here for 15 years. That doesn’t mean they’re actually doing anything anyway. Do you run into that often as well? Or is it just my bubble for some reason?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: I think that, I mean, I’ve seen what you’re talking about. I don’t know that I see that more frequently than a lot of other [00:25:00] kinds of situations.. And some of what I think we could look at in that is the impact of that people pleasing behavior, right? And the frequency and strength of that behavior. And so if it is so frequent and so strong that it becomes kind of the, the way that person deals with everything, then you know, probably one of my questions is. Do you need skill building in other areas so that you can respond differently? Or is this something that’s holding you back because you have a weight or a heaviness or something that you need to work through? That helps you understand within yourself that. Always pleasing people isn’t healthy. And so when we look at any of this space really understanding the impact to that person, [00:26:00] the people they work with. To the people that they live with and love and you know, the communities that they belong to, if it is dysfunctional because it’s reached a level where it’s too strong, too frequent, it’s like a one channel situation, then definitely we need to step back and look at that.. And I think that really gets to the issue that some, sometimes with therapy, even now, even though we’ve come a real long way, sometimes people think in their minds, well, therapy is for crisis only and I’m not in crisis.
Milan: No,
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Right. And don’t wanna get to crisis like therapy. Pre-crisis is a good thing.
Milan: It is like saying that exercise is only for obese people. It’s ridiculous.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Right,
Milan: Right?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: But that, you know, it’s the stories we tell [00:27:00] ourselves, right? It’s the stories we tell ourselves. We tell ourselves things like, if I were stronger, I wouldn’t need it. We tell ourselves things like, it means I failed as a leader. As a coach, we could say the same thing. It means I failed as a coach, right?
Because as coaches we have to be open to therapy as well. And here’s the big one. This is what I hear a lot. I don’t have time
Milan: Oh yeah,
Pamela Carrington Rotto: And.
Ged: Hear that a lot from CEOs of. Many things, don’t we? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Do. That’s probably the biggest objection. I just don’t have the time I don’t know how you guys respond to that. My response is typically something like, if you don’t have time for therapy, you certainly don’t have time to stay stuck
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Ged: Nice answer. Mm-hmm.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Think about that.
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Ged: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Milan: Ged: So, so Pamela, I.
Milan: I jet
Ged: So Pamela. [00:28:00] So Pamela, I, I had a, I had a question around how you balance, you know, your role as a coach with your obviously expertise as a registered, licensed psychologist. ’cause you know, they’re very different things. So when you are working with a client in a coaching situation now, do you.
I Is this is the therapy off limits, or do you have a distinct point where you sort of, you know, pull different hats out and put that on? How, how do you, how do you balance that within your coaching practice?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I would begin by saying just because you have the tools doesn’t mean you need to use them in every situation. And so when I engage with clients. A coach, it is as a coach, that’s the hat I’m wearing. And oftentimes we’ll have a conversation. I studied, you know, brain behavior connections and I got deep into studying people, [00:29:00] and so I’m going to bring that to the table, but I’m not going to put on my therapy hat. I have a. You know, circle of influence that allows me to connect people with therapists when the time is appropriate. And I would encourage that for all coaches. You know, we think about all the other circle of influence that we build out and that we have in communities and therapists are a really important part of that because there’s a lot of different approaches to therapy. And I think that just as with coaching. Probably the single most important predictor of success is the match between the coach and the client. The same is true of the client and the therapist. It needs to be the right match for them and for their needs. And then, like you said, Jed, in the example you gave earlier it doesn’t necessarily need to [00:30:00] be long term, so. That match is really important because it can really help free that individual up to dive in and be ready for the next level, next level, level of growth, the next level of leadership capacity, whatever that next is for them.
Milan: Mm-hmm. Do you have a magic wand for this particular problem? Because I’ve ran into this before and that is, oh, I tried therapy. It didn’t work. I just didn’t connect it. I, I’m not right that
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: It takes emotional toll. It takes. Energy to get started with therapy because it requires a level of vulnerability that that individual might not be used to.
And you know, we know that if the, if they don’t get lucky, and most of, most of the time you don’t, the first therapy is, is not necessarily the, the right. One, you know, the right modality, the right personality, whatever that is, having to go through that again and again, you know, [00:31:00] through that. It takes three, four tries before you find somebody you click with. What would you, besides patience and perseverance and belief in miracle, what would you, what would you recommend to somebody who who might be in that position or what would you recommend to me to tell them? How can I encourage them not to give up on therapy?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: You know, it’s really interesting because if you think about the service providers that we and our CEO clients surround ourselves with, not everyone goes right. The first try, right? We may change bankers, we may change you know, any number of service providers. And yet what’s interesting or maybe fascinating is that oftentimes we get it in our heads that we’re gonna choose this one therapist.
And if it’s not right, no therapist is right. So we’re willing to tolerate. And, you know, look at different doctors, right? I [00:32:00] need a second opinion, or I just don’t feel like I have the connection that I need with this doctor. I’m going to seek other help. And so therapists are no different. And some of what could be helpful is for a coach to talk to their client about their, their thought process or their selection process in choosing a coach. What were the kinds of things that were important to them? Were there any deal breakers with that? Now a therapist is different. The list is probably going to be different, but there may be a few items that are on both lists. So what is that list of, you know, nice to have, need to have and quote deal breakers for looking for therapists and connecting with a therapist.
Milan: Mm-hmm. Is there a way we can, and for lack of better word you know, don’t take it verbally diagnose, [00:33:00] to figure out from the conversation we have with a coaching client, like. Potentially, what type of therapy would be the right one for them to sort of increase the chances that they’re going to hit it?
Well the first time if we’re introducing them to somebody, right. Like yeah, after some time we do have maybe a feeling for it just from experience, but are there any particular. Hints that we can look at and say, oh, maybe you know, this would be a CPT department, or you need to look at somebody who has attachment, adult attachment style experience.
You know, or whatever that is.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Milan: Any tips?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: You know, the biggest tip that I would give on that is to use AI because you can describe things that you’re looking for and AI can point you in a direction. Now, there’s a caveat to that. Do not use AI as your therapist.[00:34:00]
Milan: Yes, please.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Don’t do that. Don’t do that,
Ged: I think that’s good advice.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Yeah, that’s really accessible to people and it can help you become aware of, you know, types of therapy that you don’t even know exist and, and then experience. Also, if you know people who have had therapists, especially people in high level positions in companies, those kinds of things. I know there’s often no vulnerability around that, but sometimes in peer groups there is vulnerability around that, and you can ask others in your peer group.
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Ged: I’d like to bring it back to the card if I could just for a moment, because the card is called Coach or Couch.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Ged: A better name have been coach and couch?
Milan: Yes. Well,
Pamela Carrington Rotto: From.
Milan: Card is making the point, yes.
Ged: Because it’s not about the [00:35:00] or is it? That’s something I’ve learned through this conversation. It’s not about the, or.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It, it is not about the, OR therapy can serve as preventive leadership maintenance if you really think about it. And I think that’s the miss. I’m glad you brought that up. Jed, because it’s not, it doesn’t need to the point be to the point where there are red flags, right? Or things are impacting our quality of life or the quality of person that, that we show up as in our personal situations or our work situations. So therapy can absolutely be preventative leadership maintenance.
Milan: Mm-hmm. Again, it’s like exercise. It’s like going to the gym for your brain, right? So to make sure that you are strong, you are resilient, and you can withstand the challenge. Mental or physical when it comes, right? And you
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Do it
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Yourself, by doing it when you don’t [00:36:00] necessarily feel you need it, right? You prevent injury by exercising before you get injured.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Right, right. Well, and we could step back and say, so what does it look like when a CEO client has both? And I don’t know about each of your experience. I notice that with some of my clients who have both coaching moves faster and.
Milan: Absolutely.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Decisions feel less charged, right? There’s less emotional charge. What else do I notice?
I notice fewer derailments where you just, you know, you know it’s going off the rails. We’re not processing the feelings of situations. It even shows up in productive and healthy conflict.. Know, with both, I think that CEOs and other individuals are well as well, are better able to engage in productive [00:37:00] conflict, conflict around the issues without making it or taking it personally.
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Ged: Yep. Milan, you, you you mentioned preventive, you know, as a, as a term, just a moment ago. And, and when, when you said that I was, I was, my, I was drawn back to Kevin Lawrence’s book, you know, your Oxygen Mask First,
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Ged: And, you know, it’s a book specifically written for CEOs and it’s a, it’s a book full of preventive tools that help CEOs get to the point where, you know, there may be there.
Psychological state is actually impacting their work and their life, you know, work, work and life. And you know, that’s a really good resource for CEOs if they sort of, you know, they just wanna, they just want to keep the maintenance going, keep the maintenance going and work through, work through and identify something that was maybe holding them back. Are you familiar with that book, Pamela?
Pamela Carrington Rotto: I am. And in fact, Jed, I am really glad you brought that up. I was on a plane last night [00:38:00] flying back home and Milan: Pamela Carrington Rotto: You know, one of the things that struck me is that when we’re on a plane. Every single time we fly, they go through a routine that instructs on us on where the oxygen mask is located. It’s not just use your oxygen mask first so that you can help others. It’s we’re going to show you where that oxygen mask is located and chances are. Vast percentage of people on that plane absolutely know that that oxygen mask is gonna drop from above, and yet they remind us. And so I, I was thinking about that in terms of knowing where your resources are located ahead of time.
Where is your oxygen mask? What is your oxygen mask? Where can you find it? So that when you’re in a situation or coming up to a situation and you need it, you know exactly where to locate it.[00:39:00]
Ged: Because you can’t help anyone else unless you’ve looked after yourself first.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: No, absolutely true.
Milan: Well, thank you very much. I, you know, I have like 17 different questions in my mind, so maybe we’ll need to do a follow up episode one day. But this, has been great and I were to summarize like a, ignore the sigma, if it’s around you.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Is a preventive measure so you can fully show up. The crisis comes, which, you know, in the life of CEOs, they will, you know, one day or the other. And yes, if you are carrying some baggage, this is making it difficult for you to act or to make the right decisions or to enjoy what you’re doing for
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Hmm.
Milan: Out loud. You know, that might be the trigger to go back and see, okay, maybe that there is. Is a need for for professional help with this and it will just make everything lighter. And as you’re saying, you [00:40:00] get a better re a better return on investment on your coaching money too, because you’ll be proceeding faster,
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Very nice touch that I wasn’t thinking about. So thank you very much for that, Jim. And
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Absolutely.
Milan: Much again for joining us. Today is our first guest. It was absolutely fantastic. Jet, anything to add before we wrap up?
Ged: No, that was, that was a great conversation. I, and I learned some, I learned some things, and you know me, I’m a learner, so I’m always happy when I learn something new.
Milan: Yeah.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: It’s great to be with both of you.
Milan: Yeah. So thank you
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Thank
Milan: Much and hopefully see you next time. Right.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Absolutely.
Ged: Thanks.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: You. Yeah.
Ged: Okay. I think that’s that’s a pretty good take. We sot two things. We didn’t give Pamela a chance to introduce herself and do a short bio. So we can, if, if Pamela, if you still have a time, I know we’re five minutes over the original slot, can we do just a [00:41:00] sort of another 90, 60, 90 seconds bio. And Luke can then slot that in at the beginning at an appropriate time. So, Milan, maybe you, you or I just do a, so Pamela maybe tell you, tell us a little bit, bit about yourself and how you got to becoming a coach and a psychologist.
Milan: Yeah.
Ged: Can we, can we do that?
Milan: Yeah. And, and
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Sure.
Milan: Why, why don’t you do it? Because that will make the splice easier. I think that,
Ged: Yep.
Milan: Luke will find a spot when I shut up, which doesn’t happen that often, but I’m sure he can find a moment then you’ll, you’ll come to that.
Ged: Yep.
Pamela’s Bio Section
Ged: So welcome, Pamela. It’s great to have you on the podcast as our first guest in a different format this time, long form rather than short form. So, Pamela, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to your current situation as being a coach and a psychologist.
Pamela Carrington Rotto: Thank you, Jed. I’m really glad to be here with both you and Milan. [00:42:00] My background sits in two worlds, as you’re mentioning, and those are two worlds that don’t always. Talk very well to each other. So I am a licensed psychologist by training and practice, and yet over the past several years, I’ve worked primarily as a coach to CEOs and executive teams in companies that are growing or scaling. And before coaching full-time, I also served as a COO. So I’ve experienced leadership from the inside, not just as an observer. And what drew me to working with leaders is that leadership has a way of amplifying. We’re carrying. I’ve seen incredibly capable high integrity CEOs who stall because, because they lack strategy or discipline, but just because they have unprocessed weight underneath the surface. And so I’ve had the opportunity to sit in both chairs, you could say, as a [00:43:00] psychologist and as a coach. And it’s given me a deep respect for what does. What each discipline does well and for the importance of knowing when forward momentum is the right lever and when something needs to be unpacked first.
And so that tension is what I’m really excited for us to explore together today.
Ged: That should set us up for a great conversation today. I’m looking forward to this chat.
