Ged: [00:00:00] Welcome back to podcast. The podcast where Milan, Ika and I, we have brief conversations around cards normally drawn from a deck like these that Milan has put together over the last ah, decade or so. We pull the cards out at random and have a really interesting conversation, a really deep conversation about whatever comes up in the card.
Let’s shuffle the cars. See what’s coming up today.
Milan: Oh goodness. Clarity before feedback. This, this card, and I think you called me up on this when we talked earlier, it kinda came out of a heart, out out of the heart. It’s a hard card, but also outta a frustration and the frustration with myself, almost embarrassment because I’ve been guilty. Of this so many times, and I do see that in my clients and in the leaders, and that is. How we assume we understand something that’s being asked of us, and we [00:01:00] immediately jump into solutioning without taking that pause or figuring out, am I actually on the right track? And then when you don’t find yourself on the right track, you just spend all that mental energy on answering the wrong question.
And as a bonus, maybe make yourself look like an idiot. So I’ve been. I’ve been guilty of this so many times through my career and I still catch myself. It’s Anyway, that’s where the card came from. I think probably I was writing it because there was a recent experience of this, either, either with myself or with a client. What’s your take? What’s your experience in that department?
Ged: Look, I think we’ve, we’ve all, we’ve all done something like this. You know, we all like to think we have the answers. I mean, it’s in our nature to be able to, to solve problems. And, you know, particularly if you’ve, you know, if you’ve run businesses or you’ve been in a senior leadership level, you know, you, you probably got there because you were able to solve [00:02:00] problems.
You were able to give answers that people could run with. People often came to you looking for answers and. So sometimes they’re not necessarily looking for an answer. They’re looking for a validation on something they already know. But if we don’t read that signal properly, if we don’t actually connect with the real intent behind them, their request, then we can, we can get it wrong.
And I, I certainly have, yeah, I mean I certainly have blurted out an answer that was blindingly obvious and they’ve looked at me and thought, yeah. Got that done, that that was the first thing we tried. We are several stages beyond that now. So we’ve also tried this, this, and this and this and this, and it’s like, oh, why didn’t you tell me?
It’s like, you didn’t give me the chance. Okay. Right. Yeah.
Milan: Right.
Ged: That, yeah, it’s about the context, isn’t it? You know? Have you, have you really got enough context from the person who’s coming to you to really be able to answer the question [00:03:00] from where they’re asking it? That’s, that’s, that’s my experience and, and yes, I’ve certainly gone through that.
Yeah. And it can be embarrassing for sure.
Milan: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And then just think about the, the the signals you are sending. Because if I, if I use your example of, yeah, we tried it, we tried it, we tried it. That’s basically in a guy saying. You really think I’m the dumb, right? So they feel condescended to, right? And that is the
Ged: Yep.
Milan: Case when you are actually talking to the right topic because you can be completely wrong, right? Can, and you know, I caught myself going one step further, not even letting them finish the question in the first place. You know, assuming that I know where they’re going with it, because I’ve been through that process multiple times and everything like that. And then they have to say, no, no, no, no.
Wait a minute, that’s not what I’m asking [00:04:00] you. And I’m like,
Ged: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Milan: Right.
Ged: Yeah.
Milan: Happened to me so often as a leader and even as a coach, I sometimes sketch myself and it’s a, it’s a tough one. It’s slightly different. Topic to what we were talking in the episodes about. What do you recommend or the 1 3 1
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Right?
Which are more about empowering the other person. Now it’s really about how do we carry ourselves in the interaction to make sure that we both project the right image. Pro provided a space for growth and learning and all of those things, provided the answer if, if necessary, again, the right one.
And we don’t waste mental energy on the wrong stuff. And you know, God forbid even damage the relationship because you can,
Ged: That That’s right. And, and I think for most people, as they’ve, as they’ve become more and more experienced in business or in and in leadership, [00:05:00] they are coming at this from the position of. I’ve got the answer. I know how to solve this. You know, and at a certain point, you’ve actually gotta stop yourself from doing that because you are no longer there to give the answers.
You are, you are there to coach people into coming up with the answers themselves or else you end up solving all the problems, you know? And if you are the person that says, right, okay, I’ve got this now let me roll my sleeves up out of the way, out of the way. I’ve got this, I can fix this. They’re just gonna let you do it, and all of a sudden you’ve got everything on your plate.
So the, the dangers of doing this means that everything comes back to you because people just see you wanting to take it on. And that, as a leader is where you have to step back. You’ve gotta step back and say, create an environment where now if they’re coming to you, they’re coming probably for validation or maybe a different perspective.
Rather than the answer themselves, because if they haven’t got the answer themselves, then you may have the wrong person.
Milan: Yeah. Or do you have [00:06:00] some work to do growing them?
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Right. Or, or
Ged: Right.
Milan: Them, getting them to the point where they need to be. But here, this is a hard card and the hard cards are all about the relationship and the culture and all of those things. And one thing I really notice about them is they, they often transcend the business area, right? Because. If you tell me that this same situation never happened to you at home, I would not believe you.
Ged: Yeah, I think that happened yesterday for me.
Milan: Yeah,
Ged: This a good opportunity to just go back through the cards and, you know, the force force suites, you know, what, what do they represent? Because, you know, they’re obviously different to the playing cards.
Milan: Yeah. So you know, hearts and, and really we are using the suits to represent sort of a thematic blocks, right? Or sort of the type of the cart. They are also a true lines of topic, like, for example, delegation or growing people or, you know, building out the team or [00:07:00] hiring and so on that goes through the deck and sometimes across the. Across the suits because again, one of my favorite cards repetition is good, to pretty much everywhere, So it finds itself in any topic. And I’m actually working on a map of how those cards relating to each other. It’s quite exciting process. But going back to the Suits, hearts team building communication. You know, that type of stuff. Clubs. It’s a mindset. Mindset of the CEO, right. How do you approach problems? How do you find yourself into the best position to, to deal with it? Spas. Systems, process, frameworks and diamonds are everything that has something to do with value. So anything money related as you find there, [00:08:00] or cards that provide a high value impact.
So for example, daily huddle is a diamond card you could
Ged: Hmm.
Milan: Case that it’s a hard card because it’s a culture and accountability or that it’s a spade card because it’s a big part of the execution framework. But again, it’s sitting in diamonds because of the massive, massive value it brings by just making that small change.
Ged: So back to back to the card, and we’ve, we’ve talked about you know, some of the, you know, the. The feelings of when this happened and why people are likely to do that. But I guess it’s worth spending a a little bit time looking at how would you recognize if you are doing this yourself now and having recognized it, what are some strategies or some tactics to actually make sure it doesn’t happen again?
Or how do you, how do you avoid this happening? So maybe recognition. How do you recognize when it’s happening and then approaches to [00:09:00] not making it happen?
Milan: You know, the analogy that’s coming to my mind is you know, the the parable or question, how do you know you are wrong? Right. And the answers usually are, is, you know, how do you feel when you’re wrong? Like, you know, I feel embarrassed. I feel like, you know, they and it was in a TED Talk and unfortunately I don’t remember the speaker, but she said, no, you’re talking about finding out that you are wrong. Right? Because being wrong really feels very much like being right, right? There really isn’t a difference. So I think that that.
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: It’s hard to catch yourself doing that while you are doing it, but you have to on the fallout when that happens, to use that as a reminder to yourself and to try to, to avoid it.
But really the framework is down to speed up. Right. And reading back [00:10:00] what you think you heard. To make sure that you are answering the right question, right? And only after they tell you, yeah, you got me. Now, what is your advice is really the permission to start moving on in the conversation until that really in the, it’s in the title of the cart, clarity before feedback, So work on the clarity part. Don’t assume that that you know what the other person is talking about.
Ged: And it is as, as CEOs and, and leaders and coaches, you know, it’s in our nature to be running very, very fast at 120 miles an hour. So the, the instinct to slow down and think before acting or responding is often not our pri not not front of mind. It’s not our primary thought at that point in time. But that’s where we’ve gotta make ourselves slow down so that we can actually make sure that we’ve got clarity on the situation before we give a response, before we give feedback, before we give an [00:11:00] answer.
And it is getting that context that is crucial to be able to handle this particular one properly.
Milan: You know, this conversation makes me really think about the art of slowing down. Maybe it should be in cart and episode on its own. It would probably be a club card because it’s really a mindset thing because we are constantly in a state of urgency of some kind,
Ged: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Milan: Business, you are always trying to get to the next thing through the next thing. And again, all saying, you know, slow is smooth and smooth is fast, right? Really need to better as leaders in the art of slowing down a face of the very often actually only perceived urgency,
Ged: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Milan: Urgency. And this is just one of the, one of the many examples, right? The you know, we can, we can think. Through the metronomic systems and [00:12:00] how that act of slowing down plays a role in each single one of them. In human system, don’t hire fast, slow down, do your top grading, right? Right. Make sure that your scorecard is in place. Make sure that you have your onboarding plan in place right before before you actually bring somebody in.
Don’t rush those important things because it always comes back in bites you, you know, and whether we are talking strategy, whether we are talking cash, whether we are talking, any of the systems again, the ability. The to slow down the crucial moments, just increases your chance of success exponentially, in my experience.
Ged: I think there’s definitely a card there and, yeah. Slowing down. Yeah. I’m sure we come up with a better name with it than that, but Milan: Right now before I forget. Like, where are my stickies?
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Art of slowing down.
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: There
Ged: Yep.
Milan: For a future card.
Ged: So, Milan, for [00:13:00] someone who, who this resonates with, who, you know, who feels themselves being in this situation, in, in their day to day work. How, how, how would you suggest that they, they go about solving this? How do you suggest that they make sure that they get the complete context before they blurt out the answer or the solution?
What, what tactics would you suggest?
Milan: Well, we mentioned it already. I think that the obvious one is the read back, right? This is what I think you’re asking me, right? This is what you already tried. Right. And this is what you need from me. Correct? Am I hearing you right or am I missing something critical here? Right. That is, that is the simplest and not the easiest habit to get into but the simplest way to make sure that, again, you’re answering the right question in the most helpful way.
Ged: I think if you’re looking for a [00:14:00] template of how to do this really, really well I’m currently watching The Pits. I’m not sure if you have that that series available where, where you are. But it’s a, it’s an ER series where, you know, each, each, each season is. One day. So it’s very, very fast paced.
And when you look at emergency teams dealing with critical situations, this is what they’re doing. A new doctor comes in and they’re asking questions of you, and they, they’re all getting the context before they then make their next decision or ask the next question. So that’s a beautiful, beautiful way to, to experience that for, for not for real, but as real as it’s gonna be, as real as it’s gonna be.
Milan: Oh, fantastic. I think this is the first time we are making a reference to a Netflix series. I think we did some comedy special references before, but I think this might be the first one.
Ged: It, it, it seemed to me to be the perfect example of how to do this, how to go about doing this, because, you know, if we can’t learn from doctors, who can we learn from? Mm-hmm. Yep.
Milan: [00:15:00] If, if the show is realistic enough again, I haven’t watched it yet, but it sounds like it’s like er meets 24, right?
Ged: And, and it and there and there may even be some shared actors there. Mm-hmm.
Milan: Yeah. Excellent, excellent,
Ged: So clarity before feedback. How do you make sure that you actually have the full context before you answer a question or ask the next question? And not doing this often makes you look bad, and it often makes the person asking the question feel a little bit uncomfortable. So this is just a skill that is well worth having in your toolkit.
Any closing. Comments Milan.
Milan: Yeah. Actually, you know what there is one more danger that we didn’t talk about, and that is, you know, depending on the cohesion of the team and the level of trust, the person whose question you are answering, not actually tell you that you answered the wrong one.
Ged: Hmm.
Milan: They might not actually give you that feedback. You can move on with your day or go on with your day thinking that everything went fine [00:16:00] in that exchange. They ask question, you gave them answer. Great. Right? So if you have any suspicion that this might be happening, then you can do the check like at the end. That what you were asking for? Right?
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Make sure that there is that feedback loop not just for the question part, but also for the answer part. Right. Is that helpful? Is that what you needed? Did I miss anything? Right. If, especially if you feel like they’re glazing over, they’re like really trying to get outta that room pretty quickly. That might be, again, an opportunity to slow down to get more out of the exchange.
