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Episode
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Milan: Well, welcome to another episode of Cardcast. Guess what? We are not shuffling cards today because we have a guest. And as you know from our previous episodes, when we have a guest, we don’t subject them to a random card pool, but we have a pre-agreed topic. And the topic today is trust, and our guest is Louis, Louis Retief, whom I met, my goodness, couple of years back now, right?
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: As a founder and CEO of Hubbly, which since successfully exited and sold itself to another company, which Louis is still with. And I’ll let him tell us a little more about himself and where he’s at today and what he’s up to
Louis Retief: Absolute pleasure to be here to talk about one of my favorite topics both professionally and personally. Trust is near and dear to my heart, and to be honest, still something I’m trying to figure out every single day. And [00:01:00] so excited to do the podcast on that today. And yeah, we met, I believe it was in 2020 when you started working with us.
And yeah, so it’s been a number of years now, and Hubly’s gone through the whole process from founding to exit and saw that all through and learnt a lot about leadership, about working with people and learnt a lot about trust through that process, and still learning every single day
Milan: Well, between the three of us, I have a feeling that this might be a little bit philosophical episode. So, you know dear listener, you’ve been warned, and off we go. To start with their own definition of what trust is?
Louis Retief: I’ll kick us off.
Milan: Good. That’s what you’re here for.
Louis Retief: So I was thinking about this and trying to figure out how do we define trust. I, I sincerely believe it’s near impossible to measure trust, but there’s a feeling, and it’s large part energetic, I would [00:02:00] say, when you know trust is present or it’s not. And while I was thinking through that, I was on a walk actually, and the idea that came to mind, which I thought might be a fun way to kick us off, is how does a dog or a baby know they can trust someone?
Because it is so… Like, we got a dog recently, and it is unbelievable how the dog knows who it can and can’t trust almost immediately. And dogs don’t have language to define trust, but, and they’re, primarily operate very energetically in terms of how they assess and understand how someone, who someone is.
And babies actually are very similar, right? Like, why do some babies just, like, automatically trust someone? And I thought that might be an interesting way to potentially define trust, is actually to ask how dogs or babies define it, because I think we would probably be using very rational logic to define trust, which I think would do a disservice if we [00:03:00] try to define it any other way.
Milan: Interesting. Let’s not talk about cats. That would be completely different. Ged, you were, you were about to say something
Ged: So I mean, that’s interesting. You know, we– I don’t– I think defining trust is really difficult, and no one’s really come up with a way of doing it. But I love that observation that, you know, is something that is instinctive. You know, it’s, it’s not something that you can measure. It’s not something that you can even define.
You know, you can see it, or you can see the absence of it, and I, and I love that definition. Being able to see the absence of trust, I think is, is almost what defines it. Is it? Not quite, but it’s, it’s almost what defines it. But taking it back to babies and dogs, I mean, you, as you say, it’s just instinctive, isn’t it?
You know, they, they, they somehow form a view that this person is a– they’re able to trust them. And that’s not through any logical assessment. It is just totally instinct. And that doesn’t help us really, does it? I mean, it gives us a frame, but it doesn’t help us.[00:04:00]
Milan: I disagree actually. I disagree because you know, in the, in the card about trust I am going through several ways of people perceiving the word, right? We have to distinguish between the word and the feeling that you’re talking about. But ultimately the feeling, and I think that that’s what the dogs feel, not that I ever asked any, I might do it afterwards, is the to be vulnerable in presence of somebody.
Louis Retief: Hmm.
Milan: And that’s from the from the, or lack of threat coming from that vulnerability, right? And I can imagine for it’s something like baby or a puppy that is vulnerable by definition, right? I think that the expression of trust is basically that, it’s safety, right? I trust you that you’re not going to take advantage of my vulnerability. Now, it sounds, you know, like we’re talking about, again, babies and dogs, but honestly between adults it’s exactly the same freaking thing,
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: Right?[00:05:00]
Ged: That’s very different to how a lot of people see trust. I mean, a lot of people see trust as, you know, I trust them to do what they say, they say they’re gonna do. The vast majority of people would define trust in that way. You know, I trust him. If he says he’s gonna do something, he’s gonna do it.
That’s all good. But vulnerability-based trust is a very, very different thing, And it’s almost, almost so different that we probably need a different word for it. I don’t think we can come up with it today, but those two things are so different that they get confused and that, and that doesn’t help the conversation
Milan: 100%. And, you know, it’s more– one, it’s more knowing somebody. But, you know, when we look at it from the, from the five dysfunctions from Lencioni, right? When we have the trust as a foundation, really the next level up is healthy conflict. So
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Is, you know, that is what we are talking about, right?
I need to have the ability to have a healthy conflict with you, which will include some vulnerability,
Louis Retief: Hmm.
Milan: I need to make sure or I need [00:06:00] to have trust that it’s not going to turn against me. Otherwise, we’re not– never going to have a healthy conflict, and without healthy conflict we can’t have commitment, and so on and so on and so on. And yes, the feeling or belief that we don’t have a word for, which is I trust you to– I trust in your capability or I believe in your capability. I believe in your accountability, in the fact that you’re going to have a very high say-do ratio, right? Is is a, is a different thing. And very often that gets misplaced or misconstrued as what we are talking about here. I– Go ahead, Lou.
Louis Retief: The where this is taking me, and I, I think you’re right about going very philosophical about this to hopefully get to the root cause or root answer. And I have this other belief that it’s like the human language is unfortunately so limited in [00:07:00] the ability to describe all conscious experience.
And, like, we’re trying to pr- define a very complex subject as trust, which involves so much more than language which is why I love, you know, this one ’cause it’s actually quite difficult. The interesting thing that both of you mentioned around, you know, it’s instinctual, and it requires a, a depth of vulnerability to and be- within a, wrapped within of those things is, is trust is actually quite relational, right?
Like, i- if we were just on an island by ourselves, like, the concept of trust would like, would that be important? And I was thinking about trust being inherently relational as a concept, right? Like, you need to be in relationship to another being, if that’s a human, a dog, or a baby, in order to experience the feeling of trust.
And I was like, “Well, that makes sense.” But then I actually challenged myself, and I was like, “Wait, but you can actually trust yourself as a, as a being in itself, and you could have a [00:08:00] relationship with yourself.” And, and it’s like what is the feeling of actually trusting yourself, and, like, what does that mean? Was like w- where I, where I was, like, starting to dig on this. And and the w- the thing that I found was, like, yes, I do deeply trust myself because I can be, like, truly honest and authentic and with myself and vulnerable with myself as, as something in, in just a general way of orientation. And so yeah, there was something around, like, trust being relational that I, I found as I was kinda thinking about the topic that help- might help us actually define it and/or see it or feel it even better
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Ged: Well, let’s, let’s go down that, that path then ’cause, you know, that takes us into the realm of self-esteem, which is probably a bigger, a bigger topic than we w- we wanted to cover off today. But you mentioned, and I l- there’s a, there’s a sort of quote out there, isn’t it? You know, you can [00:09:00] measure pretty much everything else in business, but not trust. And but you said you can observe it, so how, how do you observe it? When you, in, when we had that podcast, I mean, a year or so ago, it must be more than that now. Now, you, you came up with some signals or some indicators, not necessarily for trust, but for the absence of trust. What, what were they?
Louis Retief: Yeah, the, the best way I can explain it, and it was an experiment Milan and I actually ran, and it was unbelievable how it, how you could see it change the entire dynamic and the environment of a strategic planning session with a leadership team. The experiment we ran is what if we test where people sit in the room, right?
Like, do you put the, the CTO next to the COO, or do you put the… Or do you sit between them, and then you put… And just because different levels of trust exist between your executive team or your leadership team, right? Like, I might have a deeper level [00:10:00] of trust with our CTO than the CTO might have with the COO.
And by maybe putting the trust that I have with both of them and being the in-between conduit, can that create a better trust dynamic actually within the room itself? And we actually found the answer to be yes, it actually does. By experimenting and, and creating a, a more trustful dynamic, even in just how people are seated in the room, will make a, will have a fundamental different in the conversation that actually ends up being had throughout the group. And so the learning or takeaway with that was experimenting with, like, something as simple as, like, seating dynamics and, and if that will result in better energetics in the room and then ultimately result in better trust was the experiment we ran, and it, it was cool to have such a physical thing actually impact trust.
Milan: Mm-hmm. Well, would [00:11:00] be, you know, I would be slightly more pessimistic on that because I don’t think it impacted I think it impacted the energy in the room and in- increased the level of trust available in that situation, in that setup. On the other hand, just the fact that we had to go there and
Louis Retief: Yes.
Milan: Playing with that was the problem, right?
Because we, we just did not get at that point to the level of cohesion and trust in the team where something like this would not even cross your mind, and you could actually focus on the job at hand, which is, you know, the outcome of the meeting. But again, as an experiment, fantastic, and it it taught us something. I… And I think you’re giving me way too much credit. I think it was all your idea. The… I, I do have a question as follows, though. If we’re talking about relationships, relational– not relational trust, but trust the context of a relationship, which, you know, from the leadership point of view is the little more important one than the, than the self-belief [00:12:00] and again, different topic, not more important.
Different topic. Is trust earned or given?
Louis Retief: I think both You,
Milan: Say it was an easy question.
Louis Retief: Yeah
Like, it’s similar to the way, like, the way I think about this question, like my immediate mind and, and heart goes towards like a romantic relationship, right? And the, the giving and receiving that you experience in a, maybe an intimate or romantic relationship, right? If you’re just constantly giving and not receiving, like that’s gonna make it a very difficult relationship to be in. And vice versa as well. And so I think the same applies with trust. Like it’s more about the the balance that exists between those two than about one or the other
Milan: Important thing, didn’t say receive trust. That’s a different story. I’m talking do I give [00:13:00] you the fact that I trust you or do you have to earn it? How do we get to the point of me being able to trust you? What is the process? Is it something I give or is it something you have to earn?
Ged: Maybe I’ll just jump in with my take. I think, I think there’s a sequence. I think you have to give trust before you earn the right to receive it. To, not to receive it, to, to earn it. You know, you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta be trusting before people will see that it’s okay to be vulnerable with you, and that in turn results in earning trust the other way. But I think you have to… There’s a sequence though. You’ve gotta give it first
Louis Retief: I would ag- I would agree with that
Milan: Funny thing though, it’s not what leaders go to quite often. The reason why I think that this is actually a very interesting conversation is because this is very cultural thing. It works differently in different [00:14:00] parts of the world, and the three of us represent vastly different parts of the world in the terms of you know, pl- place of our birth and then you know, choice of our place of of residency, right? Louis and I live in Canada, but you’re from South Africa. I am from Czech Republic, behind Iron Curtain. You know, as I like to
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: You know, the, the, the acronym for the country was CSSR, so we were just one letter off from you know where, right? And Ged, you’re French by origin, Or born in France, and now living in Australia.
So have all between us, so six different you know, I lived in the US for a while, right? At least six different cultural contexts from which we can be talking about this,
Louis Retief: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Right?
Ged: I don’t think the, the place of origin has any bearing on trust. [00:15:00] The only thing the place of origin might have is the speed at which you might give or receive trust. Now, some cultures are very open and they’re very willing to give trust very early on, very quickly. Others are more closed, more reserved. If you, if you went east of where you were born, Milan, you would probably see a very, very hesitant, hesitance, a real hesitancy to take on trust
Milan: And I wouldn’t have to go very far, probably two streets over or something like that. But you’re, you’re exactly right. Like, you know, in, in Eastern Europe that is more of a trust needs to be earned. And but then what happens, what you see is that once it’s there, you have tendency to have much deeper relationships to some level or deeper… It’s, it’s different. This is a cir- it’s a circle, right? Like, how big is the circle and what happens? What is the difference between inside and outside? We, I am more in the trust-giving [00:16:00] camp for sure, knowing, you know, I’ll give you a trust by definish- by, by default until you prove me otherwise, I’m not going to put you through series of tests to, you know, make that, make that happen, or I wait for that feeling
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: I think that it’s, it’s, it’s more effective. Yeah, you get burned every now and then, but, frankly not, you know, not as much. But again, there are people, and especially cultures, when this works exactly the other way.
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: You have different kind of trust, like in tribal societies. You automatically trust somebody in your tribe, and you automatically distrust somebody outside of that, and it’s really freaking hard change that either way,
Louis Retief: It’s interesting that you you bring up heritage, and so a little history lesson. So in the 1600s my,
Milan: Okay.
Louis Retief: The French Protestants were getting basically killed by the Catholics, and they immigrated [00:17:00] down… The Huguenots, the Huguenots basically, you know, immigrated down to South Africa. They got…
Ged: A French Huguenot Mm-hmm.
Louis Retief: We got two of us on the call. This is awesome. And so they, you know, got a great…
Milan: Atheist for whatever.
Louis Retief: They got a farmland, farmland down in South Africa and then, you know, settled again after they were just like, you know, basically, you know, killed for their religious practice. And then all of a sudden, the English show up, and once again, they pack up and leave, and they basically march over the, the Drakensberg Mountains and try to find some land to settle again, and then they get attacked by tribes.
The reason I tell all that story is that like, you know, a- as I’ve done some of my personal work, is that I was born with a very high need for control. And if you have a high need for control, actually trust is a very difficult thing to give. And so in, in my leadership journey part of that process has been, and I think there’s a lot that I can say about my upbringing and the, the cultural, you [00:18:00] know place I came from around the need for control being really important.
But you can’t be controlling and give trust at the same time. Like, those things are inherently very difficult. And so I think depending on what culture you’re from, like that’s just my story on like I’ve had to learn how to let go of control in order to give the trust in order to start building that that peace. That’s that’s kinda been part of my journey that I think is an important part about my trust journey.
Milan: Mm-hmm. Well, L- L- Louie, one thing we have in common is the chosen profession of our partners,
Louis Retief: Yes
Milan: So is, you know, we can probably talk about another topic re- very closely related to trust, and that’s past trauma,
Louis Retief: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Like, how that forms the way you approach an… Wherever we are in the leadership environment or wherever we are there is always baggage we carry with us. [00:19:00] And I think that, trust, ability to give it, ability to be in an healthy relationship is one of the first indicators that there is maybe something that we are bringing into the room that should stay outside or needs to be handled. You know, we were talking about this with Dr. Karen Sron-Roro, that it might not be a job for a coach, it’s a job for a couch, right? Or for y- you know, one of our respective dear others to, to help with. I know you and I had a lot of conversations on that topic as well, right? And what do you think?
Louis Retief: Yeah, I think it’s tough, right? Because this is where personal life starts blending with your, your leadership work, right? And it’s like, where is that line? And I think if you’re in a CEO position or, or leadership role and you’re having to start to be the therapist for your team, like that’s, that’s an issue. That’s not your job [00:20:00] and shouldn’t be. Can you point out places where you’re concerned about and that they should go probably do some work on those things? I, I would say yes, that is, that is your job, but it’s not your job to solve that. Bringing it back to a piece that you said, Milan, which I think is a fascinating question actually, is like, okay, you give trust and then someone does something and now they are in the– now they need to earn it.
Like, how do you actually handle that situation? There’s a quote that someone shared with me once. “Once someone shows you who they are, believe them.” And I think, I think that’s so important, and that was a hard lesson for me to learn. I’m like, “Oh, they can, they can change. They can change. They can change.”
And it’s like, no, no, no, like this is who they are. Like you should believe them in, in that, and then how do you orientate now to that relationship? How much trust do you give with knowing the context that you know about that relationship? And I think that’s that’s [00:21:00] where things get interesting. And, you know, hopefully people grow and develop and do the work they need to do, but sometimes they don’t.
Ged: So
Milan: E-
Ged: Louis,
Milan: Sorry, G- Ged, go ahead
Ged: You, no, I was, I was gonna say bringing this back to, you know, the conversation we had a while ago, Louis. You know, you, you know, you, you went through a lot of detail about how you, how you diagnose the lack of trust within your leadership team, and there were some really, really interesting points there. You, you might not remember them all, but you know, one of… You know, one of them that that sort of stuck with me was, you know, where does the eye go in conversations? If you’re looking around a team, you know, and this is something that’s really do- really difficult to do if you’re the CEO and the facilitator in a session.
You know, you’re, you’re being asked to be the observer as well, and having three hats in a session is, is, is almost impossible. But that, that point about where do the eyes go in a conversation. Now, what, what, what insight did that give you, Louis? You know, that was… I- I- It really struck me as being, ah, [00:22:00] yeah, okay, I need to watch out for that. But what insight did it give you?
Louis Retief: Ooh, great, great that you brought that back ’cause it’s actually, it’s, it’s beautiful. Let’s say you’re talking about an issue that, you know, you’re… Is an issue that you’re technically not acc- you know, count- accountable for as the CEO to solve, although you’re kind of accountable for is- for, for all issues.
But when it comes to functional accountabilities, let’s say your, your s- your CTO and your chief product officer, for example, are having a conversation about a difficult strategic decision that needs to be made. When they’re having that conversation, are they looking to the CEO for validation about their strategy, right, or their recommendation?
Or are they just, like, communicating with one another, looking each other in the eyes, or are they, they keep glancing, trying to see if they can get some sort of validation? The, the insight that I drew from that is does someone trust themselves, or where are they necessarily operating from? Like, are they [00:23:00] operating from a place of fear?
Generally, people that are operating from a place of fear, which is very common due to maybe their upbringing, it means they don’t trust themselves or don’t trust their ability to achieve the outcome, and they’re always thinking about the worst-case scenario. And so those individuals have a tendency to, like, always kind of eye scan, looking for validation about whatever conversation they’re potentially leading versus just, like, leading the conversation and owning whatever outcome or recommendation they’re bringing. So yeah, that was like s- like the scanning of eye movements is fascinating to observe in a room
Ged: You, can you recall any of the other, any of the other points? I mean, I, I think it was a really deep conversation, and there were a few different things that came up. I mean, one of the ones was, you know, the ha- having conversations after the meeting.
Louis Retief: Mm-hmm
Ged: Now, you go through a meeting, everyone says, “Yeah, yeah, we’re on board, this is good.” And as soon as you leave the meeting, people are second guessing or they’re coming back and trying to check the decision. You know, and I mean, that must have shown a real lack of trust within the leadership team in, in that [00:24:00] situation, in that context.
Louis Retief: Yeah, like another good example is like, okay, we just spent, you know, God knows how many hours in this room, right? Like, and that’s a lot of resources, right? And mental power and energy you’re putting towards like finally making a decision, and then someone comes to you after the fact and be like, “Hey, we, you know, why didn’t we talk about this?”
And it’s like, “Why didn’t you bring it up in the room?” And they’re like, “Oh, I wasn’t sure if I, you know, if it would make sense.” And it’s like, like if we’re not being 100% truthful about the topic that we’re like talking about, it is very hard to like trust the decisions that end up being made because it’s like what are people holding back or reserving?
And so, you know, having to rehash conversations afterwards was just like very frustrating in terms of that. The, you know, the other piece that I, I found was an important thing to learn how to do is like… And it’s, it’s difficult when you’re… And I think every leader should do it, it shouldn’t just be the responsibility of [00:25:00] the CEO, is like how can you observe what is happening in that room like f- as a fly on the wall while also still participating in the conversation itself? And that’s an important skill set in life in general. Like, can you observe your behavior and the team’s behavior while also participating in that behavior? It’s a very important skill, I think, to learn for any leader so you’re not just like so trapped in it. And I think everyone should be aware of the dynamics that’s happening.
Like how are people, you know, reacting? What sort of body language, right? Like, you can tell so much about if someone’s crossing their arms when they’re talking or if they’re talking openly with their shoulders back the annotations of their voice y- or all of those things. How energetically are they attuning to when someone else is speaking?
All of those things provide some, you know, micro informations about the existing trust that is in the, the group dynamic.
Ged: And that’s often something
Milan: I- I’m
Ged: You, you go and have a look[00:26:00]
Milan: Yeah, I’m saying fortunately on purpose. Fortunately, it’s very hard people– for people to do. If every leader could do this, we would be out of a job. But and you know, to be, to be honest, even as a facilitator, I often have another coach in the room for that very purpose to get feedback on what I am doing, right? And then allowing the CEO to truly, fully participate rather than having to worry about the facilitation and the observation, right?
We can do all of those things. As you’re saying, it’s three different hats that requires you to be attuned to what’s happening in the room in a very, very different way. So yeah, that was a very, very good categorization.
Louis Retief: Well, I would, I would argue and challenge you that the CEO should also be aware about how the facilitator is showing up and the facilitator’s facilitator is showing up to the meeting as well,
Milan: Oh yeah, absolutely
Louis Retief: Right? And so it’s, yeah.
Milan: Yeah.
Ged: It
Louis Retief: So,
Ged: Surprises me that,
Louis Retief: Yeah
Ged: Always [00:27:00] surprises me that most people are completely unable to read body language and we’re sort of sl- straying away a little bit from trust, but it, it leads into, you know, the, the indicators of trust or the absence of it, doesn’t it? You know, you can be in a room where everyone is sitting down like this, you know, and no one is aware that there is an issue.
You know, and no one is aware that no one is being vulnerable, no one is being trusting. And, you know, but to anyone who can spot that it’s… The, the signs are a mile wide, aren’t they? It’s it’s, it’s really bizarre. It’s really bizarre
Louis Retief: Well, to bring it back to trust regarding body language, it is unbelievable how easy dogs make it to tell you if they trust someone or not. Like, their ears are absolute signals of 100% accuracy of, like, how they feel about this human in front of them. If their ears are up and a little bit moving, they’re, like, curious about this human or, like, interested in them.
If they’re, like, fully back, they’re, like, in submissive mode, and they’re like, “I will trust this human with my life completely.” and so [00:28:00] just, like, subtle cues like that with dogs can tell you so much, and I think humans unfortunately give way more cues, which I think is the hard part to actually figure out which is the right cue or the wrong cue, where dogs make it incredibly simple just with their ears. But yeah, body language is an immediate telltale sign
Milan: De- depends on the breed, you know. Some of them have zero control over the flappy thingies around the sides of their
Louis Retief: Totally. Yeah
Ged: Yeah.
Milan: Absolutely.
Ged: W- we have a, we have a cocker spaniel and th- those ears are giving nothing away, you know. They just flop. They just flop.
Louis Retief: Hmm.
Milan: Is too funny. Y- you know, it’s, it’s interesting how many related or adjacent topics you get into when you start talking about trust, right? We started talking about confidence and self-confidence. You know, we were talking about body language and you know, ability to commit to something.
Like you know, I was recently made aware of an interesting exercise that one of my [00:29:00] mentors did, when… So he had a fairly difficult conversation with the leadership team, you know, at the end of the day, they, they made their necessary decisions and everybody… Everything else, and you would think, “Okay, let’s go.” But what he did at that point, say, “I would like you to all close your eyes and raise your hand, and show me on a number of, number of fingers of how committed you are to the outcomes of this, of actually doing what we agreed on what we are doing here.” Right? I’m not going to say what… I, I will just give you the… I’ll just do the, the histogram, basically. And he got twos, threes, the odd four right? He said literally, “What the fuck are we doing here?” You know,
Louis Retief: Unbelievable
Milan: Five hours on? What is the, you know, what is the underlying issue? And it’s actually one of the things that I really find fascinating because we are so focused on the activity, you know, on the frameworks, on the structures and everything like that.
[00:30:00] But really the success of whatever our endeavor is, is mostly determined of what drive, what’s driving the participants. What is the context and what are the relationships between them, and how does that work? Because, you know, you, i- it’s hard to change somebody’s behavior if you don’t change the context within which they operate, right?
Again look, I’ve again, grew up in a part of the world where good performance in a job was frowned upon because that would increase the expectations on everybody else right? And that, that was, it was sometimes severely punished, but, you know, if somebody showed up and, and didn’t do that.
So, and it’s just context,
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: It’s just that the, the motivation was set up in that way, because, you know, it didn’t make any difference to you personally, positively, but it made a huge difference negatively on everybody [00:31:00] else. The externality was there. So it was all about the context and the power of the relationship that drove you to some behavior regardless of what the expectations on you actually were from the system.
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: And I think that this is similar, right?
Louis Retief: It, it’s unbelievable. Like, it it goes back to what you mentioned about tribes earlier, is like I think unfortunately as humans, like, w- there’s still so much, like, us versus them mentality, like, in this world, like, let alone in corporate environments where we’re actually all supposed to be working towards the same goal. But us versus them is so common, right? It’s like if I, I need to succeed over this department, and like, it’s my, my goal over their goal, when it’s like, no, no, no, like, there’s one goal, which is, like, us all succeeding through the, the building of this. And it’s even common in, like, romantic and intimate relationship how much, like, us versus them mentality it is.
And I, I think it’s a cultural thing that I, I hope [00:32:00] will d- die down, but I think it’s the core root of, like, the issue that you’re talking about Milan, and, and probably what’s present in this room, why, you know, these folks had difficulty all, like, saying, “We’re a five,” is ’cause, like, there was probably, like, “Well, what if they do this and I do this?”
And when it’s like, no, no, like, we’re doing this together, building a third entity called the organization. It’s n- not about us versus you. And I find that, like, still present in the organization, you know, I’m part of, and every organization I’ve ever been part of and team is like there’s this us versus them dynamic, which is just painful to observe.
Milan: I, I give you a tip that m-might work, you know, if you find yourself in that meeting, and say not what you are doing in order to succeed, but what are you doing to help this guy to succeed in their job, right?
Ged: Hallo?
Milan: Focusing on that because if, if… That is built around a relationship, not around the activity,
Louis Retief: Yep
Milan: And then [00:33:00] ultimately we are building the higher being, which is the, you know, which is the organization or the, or the collective or collective as a whole. And I think that a huge sign of trust is when somebody both consciously and objectively, obviously takes the goal of the collective over their own, And say, “Hey, this might not be the best thing for the department, but I know that this needs to happen.” Right? How are you going to deal with that? And the ability of a leader to stop to that level, you know we always start a conversation with saying, “In a leadership team, you’re not here as the CTO, you’re not here as a COO. We have the same hat, which is a leader of this organization, and you need to operate from that, from that side.” And again, without trust, that is really freaking hard.
Louis Retief: Very difficult
Ged: Yeah. Just doesn’t happen. And that’s Patrick Lencioni’s one team idea, isn’t it? [00:34:00] The one team concept. You know, you’re, you’re in the room as a member of the leadership team. First team, yeah. Mm-hmm. So you’re right, first team, yeah. You’re in the room as a member of the leadership team, not as your individual role or function.
Yeah. So we’ve, we, we’ve tried to define trust. I’m not sure we did. We, we we we came up with a few indicators of where it’s not there, but other than…
Milan: Job, but okay.
Ged: We, we did a, we did as good a job as anyone else is probably the be- is the way to, is the way to
Louis Retief: I don’t trust that we did.
Ged: So if it’s… We, we just, we, we said that it’s, you know, we know when it’s not there as opposed to when it is there. So if it’s not there, what can we do to build trust within groups of, of leaders or groups of individuals?
Milan: If I may, there was actually one thing that Luis said that I really wanted to double-click, and then we went
Ged: Sure
Milan: Directions. I do want to come back to it, and that’s what happens when trust is lost, right? The saying is that the trust takes years to build and [00:35:00] seconds to lose, right? Because literally one act can show who you are, while you might spend years of acting as something you’re not and I think that this is really touchy subject. Can trust be re-earned? You know, which is even worse than the earned, right? Because you’re already starting from behind the, the eight ball on that. How on earth does this work? Like, how do you trust that somebody truly changed? And the reason why I’m struggling with it is that because I’m struggling with it, I do, I do find myself to be a little bit of a one-shot guy in this, as
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: You lose the trust once, and we’re probably done, know? I’m 50-plus years old. I don’t have two more decades to spend on you to get back to my life safely, right? I earned the right to select who I want to surround myself with. So… Or I probably didn’t earn [00:36:00] it, but I bestowed it right onto, onto myself, right? That, you know, that’s what it is. So what,
Louis Retief: Yes.
Milan: Your take, right?
Louis Retief: I think your take is fair, like, to be honest. Like, I think… And then, but there’s, like, a small, like, point of differ- difference that I would make, and my… This is what I believe is, like, can…
Milan: Between
Louis Retief: Yeah, yeah.
Milan: The reason.
Louis Retief: Like, c- can human- like, the, the fundamental question is actually, like, can trust be rebuilt? The question after that is, like, can humans change?
I think the answer is yes, although I am deeply, deeply pessimistic that people change at, in any quick way, right? Like, it takes people years and years and years to pr- truly change. And so are you supposed to wait that long? No. However, I do think you should at all times [00:37:00] always hold space in trusting that other people might change, right?
Does that mean you need to, like, continue working with them for 10 years if they’re gonna change or not? But, like, I would love for that person to evolve as a human, right? And, like, I would love to see them change, and I will always remain open for them to grow as a human, but I’m not necessarily going to, like, continue working with them.
Does that make sense, like, the small little difference on, like, how I orientate towards it?
Milan: I actually don’t see any difference whatsoever
Louis Retief: N-
Milan: That,
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: You know, I, I think that there are two elements to this. Like, can somebody change? Absolutely. You know, do I need to be a part of the process? Absolutely not. Can I choose to be if I feel that I
Louis Retief: Correct
Milan: Helpful in that process? Absolutely. Right?
Everything is so situationally dependent, and also is this very, very different if you’re talking about your colleague or if you’re talking about your child who let you down at some point, right? Like, you again, going back to the tribality and, you know, all of those all of those things, it’s, [00:38:00] it’s a definitely a loaded question. But what we need to understand that just because the relationship between me and that person is broken because of a trust issue does not mean that they can’t be happy without me. You know?
Louis Retief: Totally
Milan: Judgment in it. It’s just that, hey, this is not working. Mean that it cannot work for you for somebody else, and you know what? You’re free to do so. Like y- you know, I am freeing you from the obligation of your attention to me, When, when you are turning, when you’re turning that relationship in. And again you know, when it’s in a, in a, a work environment and you’re the CEO or my client, you’re effectively freeing their future to something where this might not be a requirement, meaning that are free to find a place that’s happier for them. One of my friends used to work for a, a restaurant [00:39:00] chain company, and they had this beautiful saying of promoting somebody to a customer,
Ged: Hi there Mm-hmm.
Milan: Just
Ged: Mm-hmm.
Louis Retief: Oh, wow
Ged: So bringing it back to the question from a while back. Now how, how can we build trust? Now re- regardless of whether the roots of it are there or whether there’s distrust, now how, how do you build trust within a group of individuals, leadership team or not? Difficult question, obviously.
Louis Retief: Yeah
Milan: Well you know Luis, I’ll, I’ll jump in, but that don’t take that as a reason not to not to come from a different angle. I think that the important thing is that first you need to make everybody aware of the importance of the trust, and then the fact that it starts with them, right?
Because as you said earlier, unless you give it, you’re not going to receive it. So we need to get to the point where it’s given [00:40:00] freely in that environment, and when it doesn’t feel right, that means we either don’t have the, the right people or we don’t have the right set up in which this could, this could actually work. And you know, this is one of the first things we work on, right? If we don’t have that in a team, then we’re wasting so many calories that could be put into putting the company forward into trying to you know, patch things up and try to sort of navigate around. Like going back to what Luis said he spent so much energy trying to make something work within that team than having the team as the source of energy to do something else.
Louis Retief: Correct.
Milan: It’s freaking exhausting, right? Talk about burnout,
Louis Retief: Legit, yeah. It
Milan: Because, because you’re pushing so hard, and it’s literally going nowhere because your best outcome is that [00:41:00] through some incredible amount of effort, you finally get to ground zero from which you can start moving, and the success is not guaranteed on that, right?
Louis Retief: Love it. Yes to all of that. And to add to that, I don’t think it’s the responsibility of, like, the CEO or, you know, one team, like one leader to build trust in the room, right? Like because even if I, for example, have trust with every single individual in the room, that does not mean there’s group trust. Because one person might not like another person, and that person might not trust that person. And so the trust that I have with each individual, they need the same level of trust w- with each other individual as well. Like I think group trust is like not really a thing in my opinion, right? Like trust is like a one, one-to-one street, right?
And so I think i- if I were to go back, I would be a lot more conscious about when trust doesn’t exist [00:42:00] between two people or two other people in the room, and like going right to that a lot quicker. Because I honestly thought I had a trustful relationship with each individual human i- in terms of hours, but they didn’t necessarily trust one another. And, and so that’s the, the way I would see it is like how do you… And I don’t know the answer to this, Jed. I, to be honest, is like how do you encourage everyone in the room to build trust with one another? I, I don’t know
Milan: I, I need to correct you, Louis. There are moments when I disagree with you. Louis Retief: Of course.
Milan: A-and it’s just one statement, and that was the word responsibility.
Louis Retief: Mm-hmm.
Milan: No, it’s not your responsibility to create trustworthy, it isn’t. But it is your responsibility to build the room in which it is, right? And that very often means replacing people
Louis Retief: Yes.
Milan: It is, you know, if you raise the bar, not everybody is going to want to rise to the [00:43:00] occasion because, you know, you’re building a different collective, different organization to the one they signed up for. So you have to be fair to them, and you have to be able to say, “Hey you might n- not want to operate on this level,” and that’s fine, right? It’s okay. So yeah you know, you’re talking about the identification that there is a problem, then you can try to, to go there and try to figure out and… Dude, we tried, remember?
Louis Retief: We did, we did. We did try, but we didn’t, we didn’t, we didn’t do the,
Milan: Yes
Louis Retief: The thing that needed to be done actually, or I didn’t. I’ll take responsibility for that. And I think, you know, that was the, the hard lesson learned there
Ged: I think that point is really important. You know, sometimes you just can’t build trust. You know, you can, you can do all the exercises, you can go through all the motions. You know, you can ask sort of, you know, cohesion-type questions of the whole group many, many times, but sometimes that team is just not right, and sometimes you have to make the hard call to balance the [00:44:00] team so that it has a chance of success. Until you’ve got the right people in the room, that trust won’t occur. No matter how you go about building it, and there’s, you know, various techniques that we probably won’t have time to go through today outside of Lencioni’s until you build that team, then not gonna happen. It’s just not gonna happen
Milan: Look, I think we just hit a recor- a record of our longest episode ever, it’s a great conversation, so I’m going to add one thing to it, and this is actually something that has always been really bugging me about top grading. Because you know, the, the big thing of a, of having a team that has trust starts with bringing the right people to the right?
We often, as coaches, come into a situation where something needs to be changed, but ultimately, everybody you add is either going to lower the increase the bar or lower it, one, one way or the other, right? The- that’s where the system is missing the feeling, the gut, the [00:45:00] energy, right? Can I spend, you know, next three plus years working with this person, right?
That really needs to be there, and I’m going back to the energetic, like, what are my ears doing if I were a dog? You know, when I’m, when I’m looking at them. It’s actually something that we need to learn to listen to, right? Your body is giving you a lot of information that we’ve been trained for a generation to ignore, right? But as you’re saying, trust is relational, energetic thing, and sometimes you just feel this is not gonna work, which is nothing against the person because it’s about the relationship between the two of you. Might be perfectly trustworthy with somebody else, and that’s perfectly fine, right? But we need to be selective in it because ultimately our responsibility is to build the organization with the culture and atmosphere of trust.
Louis Retief: My my partner always says this, “If it’s not a fuck yes, it’s a fuck no.”
Milan: Yes
Louis Retief: And and I [00:46:00] think that speaks to exactly what you, you’re talking about because, like, there’s always that little bit of something. I was just recently in an interview with a, with a candidate, and everything was, like, green from, like…
But there was, like, this just, like, little niggling feeling that I was like, “What? What is that?” Like, why don’t… Like, resume, green. Like, the way they spoke, green. Like, everything, but there was this, like, niggling little thing that I’m like, ooh, this, in my gut that was, like, telling me there’s something here.
And yeah. And gotta listen to those cues ’cause the, there’s something there
Ged: Yeah. No, that’s, that’s absolutely right, yeah. Mm-hmm
Milan: So many stories which we don’t have time for today. Maybe, maybe we’ll have to, we’ll have to bring you back one day and continue because this was a very, very enjoyable conversation. Thank you so much for joining us
Louis Retief: Oh, thank you so much for having me
Ged: Louis, before we, before we wrap up, you know, if you, if you had, and I’m putting you on the spot here, so I apologize for that, but if you had [00:47:00] one observation or point or question about trust that you would wanna share with someone, someone who is maybe struggling with building trust in their own team, what would that be?
Louis Retief: Obvious answer to this one. You need to learn how to trust yourself. You can’t identify trust, you can’t build trust, you can’t even see trust in other humans if you don’t like deeply to the core of your freaking soul, like, trust yourself. And so if I could encourage anyone to, like, if they wanna start tackling the concept of their, of trust, like, ask yourself, do you trust yourself?
And a lot of people might say yes or no to that, right? And if the answer is not like yes, but like a deep true yes, you know, like that you know is actually true start there. Because that will start unpacking the topic of trust and, you know, I can comment more about, like, where that journey would likely take you. But I’d, I’d probably start there
Milan: You know what? I, I don’t know if I’m [00:48:00] impressed or disappointed that it took you this long to finally get to the topic that is a somewhat good bridge to talk about your book
Ged: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
Louis Retief: I’m slow, I’m slow sometimes.
Milan: So tell us something about the craft of th- thyself, and we’ll wrap up with that
Louis Retief: Yeah. So I recently published a book on Amazon, self-published it. It’s nothing fancy. And I actually wrote the book with a very simple intention. I just turned 31, but I published this book when I turned 30. And the goal of the book was to actually document my current state of consciousness and orientation towards the world, because I simply wanna read that book when I’m 80 or 90, when I’m old, and I can either laugh at it and be like…
Or I can be like, “Wow, I a- actually had a thing or two figured out.” And so I don’t know which of those worlds is gonna be my future yet but I wanted the artifact. And so that was the [00:49:00] intention. If I end up selling some copies, great. If I don’t, also great. But I think the, the book, the, that I s- wrote has seven chapters, and the, it goes through seven fundamental truths that I’ve learnt regarding my craft. The i- the reason to call it Craft of You is that, you know, humans have been perfecting crafts for generations, like stone masonry, you know, archery. Like, go back and, like, there’s a you know, some sort of nation that perfected some sort of craft. You know, we’re in, like, the technology craft age now. But something that’s remained, you know, true for all time is, like, how do you develop the craft of you, right? Like, who you are how you orientate, how you make decisions, all of those things, and, like, get really deeply in love with the idea of crafting yourself. And so in the book, I learn, like, seven less- I share the seven fundamental lessons I’ve learnt along that journey, [00:50:00] of, of trusting myself, learning how to, how to love myself learning about how to, like, channel my energy and my, my creative potential how to, like, really deeply understand my instincts how I orientate towards relationships, concepts like trust and, you know even about, like, how I even, like, mastered the art of choice, which is, like, a very paradoxical thing to, to do. We could do whole episode
whole episode on choice. Like, I love the topic of choice. And so yeah, that’s why I wrote the book, and a little bit about it, and yeah, I would encourage folks to, to buy it on Amazon, Craft of You by Louie Ratif if they’re interested, and encourage them more importantly to write their own book about your own craft.
